CK30 Injection Pump

[btward79]

My other posts mention me installing the loader... I have figured that apparently that was a coincidence.

I had my tractor running shut it off and now it won't start up. I have went through the fuel bleed steps and have no fuel coming out of the injector nozzle holder, while I do have fuel at the bolt on the injector pump. I am cranking the engine while checking as well. Unfortunatly, this sounds like the injector pump has a problem.

I have seen the reports on the teeth being bad. From the book there is a plunger that moves as well. Can I move the gear or plunger by hand without taking the IP pump out? Any tips or advice would be nice. My tractor was bought used at 32 hours and now has 39.

 

[btward79]

I put my finger on the stop solenoid and I feel it clicking on and off with the ignition so that probably rules that part out... Any other information would be appreciated.

 

[btward79]

Thanks to another forum member for messaging me I opened up the oil fill flange, the piece in the picture below with the orange cap which is mounted just in front of the injection pump.


This next picture below is looking inside of the oil flange after removal and towards the front of the engine. item #3 which you can't see in the picture is the stop solenoid. When the key is turned to on. It moves towards the front of the engine. Away from the injection pump. Now I believe the rod item #4 is supposed to move as well and it's not. This is apart of the injection pump. I put a pick in there and tried to move it either way and I can't get it to move...

 

[dlw1501]

Thats it...The one you have marked number 4 has to move forward with the key on. when working right it is very easy to move.

 

[dlw1501]

My Tractor is Kioti CK25

 

[dlw1501]

The 1st lever with the springs on it is your throttle.....the 2nd lever behind it is your governor lever. That lever will move when it is running....it pushes rod on pump when running.....towards back of tractor for idiling and when throttle up it will move towards front of tractor to let pump deliver more fuel. it hits the rod on pump.

 

[dlw1501]

The tube looking piece i am talking about is in your 1st pic.....in the bottom left.

 

[btward79]

So the 1st lever close towards our view is the throttle? That doesn't appear to touch or be in any position to ever touch that pin on the rod in the pump... Now that 2nd lever hiding in the back there the govener I believe you're saying that still doesn't touch the pin on the rod but I can see how it could do that... Unfortunatly, that pin doesn't move at all.

As for the tube piece I figured that's what you were referring too... I see another post here http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/kioti-owning-operating/230395-ck25-will-not-start.html
mentioning to remove the stop solenoid... What is the dangers in removing this I see some words of caution...

 

[ritcheyvs]

btward: Your item #4 is the injection pump (IP) rack pin. Inside the IP is a rack (toothed strip) that engages gears (one per engine cylinder) that control the amount of fuel injected (under 2000+ psi) into each cylinder near the top of the compression cycle of each piston. In addition to this pin, there are springs behind the IP that act directly on the rack and push it forward (more fuel) to set the idle speed. Also, the stop solenoid (SS) pushes directly on the front of the rack to move it aft to the shutoff position (no fuel). The "throttle" is a spring arrangement that pulls on the rack pin to move the rack forward (more fuel) and the centrifugal governor pushes it aft via a lever. The governor and "throttle" should exert force on the rack pin. Basically, the IP injects enough fuel to balance the centrifugal and spring forces.

Your picture makes it look like the throttle/spring has disconnected from the rack pin. But maybe I'm not seeing it right. If that were the only problem, the engine should still start and idle.

The rack pin should move under light finger pressure except it may be forced full aft by the strong spring in the SS. I would recommend removing the SS and then see if the rack moves or not (jammed). If the rack is jammed call your dealer (you are under warranty, yes?) A jammed rack probably means broken rack and/or gear teeth and the Kioti solution is to replace the IP. An easy job but a $1000 part.

Good luck.

Scott

 

[dlw1501]

Yes...the governor lever will not touch it until it is running...you can remove stop solenoid but just make sure plastic piece in between solenoid and pump doesn't fall into engine. You can take mechanical lever that nothing is hooked to off... Above solenoid... That will also stop engine if your solenoid doesn't work by moving that lever by hand. This will help you get plastic piece out. I used a long Alan wrench to stick in plastic piece and slide it out.

 

[btward79]

The "throttle" is a spring arrangement that pulls on the rack pin to move the rack forward (more fuel) and the centrifugal governor pushes it aft via a lever. The governor and "throttle" should exert force on the rack pin. Basically, the IP injects enough fuel to balance the centrifugal and spring forces.

Your picture makes it look like the throttle/spring has disconnected from the rack pin. But maybe I'm not seeing it right. If that were the only problem, the engine should still start and idle.

Ok, I'm with you on everything except quoted here. Now the governer exterts rearward force on the pin by a level it looks like. I can see that by looking in the hole how it would push the pin on the rod backwards.

As for the throttle spring that's the big spring in the photo, the one on the outside correct? It hooks around the throttle rod, I assume that's what that is. But in no way does it touch that pin. The item marked 6 in the picture is the end of thats spring loop around the throttle rod. Should that be wrapped around that pin on the rack? Even if that's the case I have no idea how it would stay on. There is no hook on that rack pin to hold it in place.

I put a pick in there and can move it around and inbetween the rack pin and that throttle rod. There is just enough space to pass the pick. So if that throttle spring is suppose to go over the rack pin it seems like it would just slip off... :confused3:



No warrenty. Bought it used with 32hrs, only has 39 hours now. I'm the guy with the broken tach too. Starting to get a little upset with this tractor.

 

[btward79]

Yes...the governor lever will not touch it until it is running...you can remove stop solenoid but just make sure plastic piece in between solenoid and pump doesn't fall into engine. You can take mechanical lever that nothing is hooked to off... Above solenoid... That will also stop engine if your solenoid doesn't work by moving that lever by hand. This will help you get plastic piece out. I used a long Alan wrench to stick in plastic piece and slide it out.

Thanks for the note! Sounds like by moving the manual shut off it'll make it easier to get out the plastic piece. I don't need any more troubles for the time being thanks!

 

[dlw1501]

Throttle springs are where they should be....DO NOT MOVE THEM. Anything else I can help you out with feel free to ask!!!!

 

[btward79]

Throttle springs are where they should be....DO NOT MOVE THEM. Anything else I can help you out with feel free to ask!!!!

Ok. With that said. When you throttle up, what pulls on that rod (moving it towards the front of the motor) in the IP to increase fuel delivery?

 

[dlw1501]

Their is constant pressure on it from the tube looking piece you took out of the back of the housing...when you start it you will see the governor move then and push the rod towards the back to idle. When you throttle up the first lever withe the springs on it will allow governor to move which allows it to move forward to let the pump rod move forward for more fuel. You will see it when you get it running.

 

[ritcheyvs]

Ok, I'm with you on everything except quoted here. Now the governer exterts rearward force on the pin by a level it looks like. I can see that by looking in the hole how it would push the pin on the rod backwards.

As for the throttle spring that's the big spring in the photo, the one on the outside correct? It hooks around the throttle rod, I assume that's what that is. But in no way does it touch that pin. The item marked 6 in the picture is the end of thats spring loop around the throttle rod. Should that be wrapped around that pin on the rack? Even if that's the case I have no idea how it would stay on. There is no hook on that rack pin to hold it in place.

I put a pick in there and can move it around and inbetween the rack pin and that throttle rod. There is just enough space to pass the pick. So if that throttle spring is suppose to go over the rack pin it seems like it would just slip off... :confused3:

View attachment 278244

No warrenty. Bought it used with 32hrs, only has 39 hours now. I'm the guy with the broken tach too. Starting to get a little upset with this tractor.

As I understand it, the rack pin should be inside the slot of that lever and the spring acts on the lever which acts on the pin. So (as dlw said) the spring is where it's supposed to be. The real issue at this point (IMO) is whether the IP is jammed up inside or not. If it's jammed up you probably have broken teeth on the gear or rack and that means IP replacement or rebuild. Several Kioti owners on TBN reported this IP failure occurring at engine shutdown but I can't say if this is a one in a thousand or one in ten problem. It should NEVER happen but it seems some of these internal IP parts were defective in the sense they were too brittle.

Assuming your IP is jammed you can get a new one from Kioti but if you have a Bobcat dealer nearby that may be cheaper. The other option is a local Diesel shop that rebuilds (and calibrates) IPs. One dealer that posts here reported that Bosch parts fit these Korean IPs and that he's had good experience with local rebuilds. I expect a local rebuild with Bosch parts would be a cheaper and permanent fix considering that a new Kioti pump could have the same flaws as your current one. I just assumed you still had warranty coverage with so few hours, sorry about that.

I also understand that Mahindra and Kubota use this same IP (their replacement IPs costs more) so I wonder if these folks have similar problems?

 

[Mousefield]

Ok, I'm with you on everything except quoted here. Now the governer exterts rearward force on the pin by a level it looks like. I can see that by looking in the hole how it would push the pin on the rod backwards.

As for the throttle spring that's the big spring in the photo, the one on the outside correct? It hooks around the throttle rod, I assume that's what that is. But in no way does it touch that pin. The item marked 6 in the picture is the end of thats spring loop around the throttle rod. Should that be wrapped around that pin on the rack? Even if that's the case I have no idea how it would stay on. There is no hook on that rack pin to hold it in place.

I put a pick in there and can move it around and inbetween the rack pin and that throttle rod. There is just enough space to pass the pick. So if that throttle spring is suppose to go over the rack pin it seems like it would just slip off... :confused3:

View attachment 278244

No warrenty. Bought it used with 32hrs, only has 39 hours now. I'm the guy with the broken tach too. Starting to get a little upset with this tractor.

btward79. I did look at your old posts and did not see the year of the tractor although you seem to indicate is was about 2 years. The power train has a 4 year warranty and the IP should then be covered by warranty. Get hold of the dealer it was originally purchased from by the previous owner and confirm purchase date. The warranty should be transferable.

 

[btward79]

[/B]

btward79. I did look at your old posts and did not see the year of the tractor although you seem to indicate is was about 2 years. The power train has a 4 year warranty and the IP should then be covered by warranty. Get hold of the dealer it was originally purchased from by the previous owner and confirm purchase date. The warranty should be transferable.

I've been on the horn this AM with the original selling dealer. Tractor was purchased by original owner July 2008! This is like a bad dream or something. The lady who answered is going to give this information to the owner of the dealer there and see what he can do. I would like to chat with him to explain the problem and I have mentioned all the failures mentioned here as well.

 

[btward79]

As I understand it, the rack pin should be inside the slot of that lever and the spring acts on the lever which acts on the pin. So (as dlw said) the spring is where it's supposed to be. The real issue at this point (IMO) is whether the IP is jammed up inside or not. If it's jammed up you probably have broken teeth on the gear or rack and that means IP replacement or rebuild. Several Kioti owners on TBN reported this IP failure occurring at engine shutdown but I can't say if this is a one in a thousand or one in ten problem. It should NEVER happen but it seems some of these internal IP parts were defective in the sense they were too brittle.

Assuming your IP is jammed you can get a new one from Kioti but if you have a Bobcat dealer nearby that may be cheaper. The other option is a local Diesel shop that rebuilds (and calibrates) IPs. One dealer that posts here reported that Bosch parts fit these Korean IPs and that he's had good experience with local rebuilds. I expect a local rebuild with Bosch parts would be a cheaper and permanent fix considering that a new Kioti pump could have the same flaws as your current one. I just assumed you still had warranty coverage with so few hours, sorry about that.

I also understand that Mahindra and Kubota use this same IP (their replacement IPs costs more) so I wonder if these folks have similar problems?

I hope that pin isn’t supposed to be inside that rod because then something else broke. I don't know if that's how it works though. In either case that rod (rack rod) doesn't slide. I spoke to a Diesel shop this AM and explained it all to him. I said if I had him rebuild it could he use some better gears (assuming it is the gears) etc. He said he would find whatever is the highest quality part and use that. I told him to me from the picture of another member the gear almost looks like pot steel. He couldn't speak for the rebuild of my IP without seeing it but said typical rebuild with a few gears or parts is around $250.

If it turns out Kioti will replace my pump under warranty which is up in the air since I'm a month out. It's debatable what to do here... I don't have a truck and trailer to get it to the dealer. I could ask a friend but that's putting them out too. Is there a guarantee a new Kioti pump won't break in the future? Hmm...

 

[btward79]

Their is constant pressure on it from the tube looking piece you took out of the back of the housing...when you start it you will see the governor move then and push the rod towards the back to idle. When you throttle up the first lever withe the springs on it will allow governor to move which allows it to move forward to let the pump rod move forward for more fuel. You will see it when you get it running.

dlw1501, I didn't take out that tube on the rear facing portion of the pump yet. But I think I understand what you're saying! That governer is what holds the rack pin back while that tube shaft has an internal spring that pushes forward towards the governer tab. Gotcha that makes a lot of sense. And right now that governer tab is NOT touching the rack pin. So that pin must be locked all the way back in shut off. You would think that governer tab would still be touching it though. I do follow you and it makes it sound like my problem is a broken gear all the more.

Quick, someone give me something to throw!