Climate Change Discussion

[hazmat]

It seems we got off on a tangent in this thread Brown clashes with Orange. I though I'd start a subject on it's own.

I know this is a potentially politically charged subject, but I for one think our children's future crosses political parties (and that we here at tbn can discuss it in a civilized mannor).

I turned 32 today, I have grown up with the environmental movement. As an optomist & idealist, I always thought the government would come thru to protect future generations, well I haven't seen that - we americans have become addicted to energy, thanks in no small part to our government's subsidy of fossil fuels.

I recently saw Mr. Gore's movie An inconvenient truth. Granted it is designed for "shock value" but he makes a good arguement that humans are making an impact on the climate.

He referenced a study that compared global warming in scientific periodicals with the popular press. They looked at ~900 articles in the periodicals, none disputed that global warming was happening. More than 50% of the articles in the popular press "created doubt". Sounds like propaganda to me....

I've come to believe that:
1 - We are in the midst of climate change
2 - It is "our" fault
3 - I am going to do something about it now

So what am I doing about it? - reducing my family's CO2 emmisions & reliance on fossil fuels as much as practicle.

Check here for a carbon calculator

1- Paying 2 cents more for renewable (wind & hydro) electricity that does not emit CO2 (every kwH produces ~1.5 lbs CO2)

2- Traded my truck for a car that gets 2X better fuel milage (every gallon of gas burned produces 22 lbs)

3- Considering geothermal (ground source heat pump) heat for my house to minimize natural gas use.

4- Trying to convince my wife that we should buy a hybrid & park her SUV unless we need the capacity - weekend trips vs. her commute to work.

5- Plan to install Solar PV panels on my roof.

6- Reduce energy use, CF bulbs, better insulation etc.

7- Buying biodiesel for my tractor (see it is related)

8- Support renewable energy "in my backyard" (wind projects off the Mass coast etc.)

Even if you don't believe / aren't concerned about climate change, you should be concerned about running out of fossil fuels. Every article / book I've read states that we will reach the peak production (1/2 the known resources consumed) in my lifetime, after that, energy prices will continue to rise as supply diminishes. Our economy thrives on "cheap energy". What kind of great depression will our children face, if we don't start now to create more renewable energy.

Here's all the motivation I need:

 

[turnkey4099]

This is a topic that is hotly debated everywhere. My view is:

Global warming _is_ happening as shown by all the ice missing off glaciers and the polar icecaps.

Is there a natural warming cycle? Yes

Are we the cause? No, not solely.

Are we contributing - Yes.

Harry K

 

[BB_TX]

I take basically the same position as Harry. I think we are in a normal warming cycle. And I think mankind contributes to that. But I am not convinced emission reductions will have a significant impact on minimizing the cycle. However, I do believe it should be done just in case it is a significant factor. It would not be wise to wait for positive proof and then try to reverse it.

 

[EddieWalker]

While I agree that it's important to cut down polution as much as possible, I don't believe that humans are responsible for the one degree increase in global tempatures over the last century.

Without getting political, there are a few things in history that prove this.

The grape vine is very tempermental and will only grow in certain areas at certain tempatures. Too cold or too warm and it will die. The Romans grew wine grapes in Great Britain 2,000 years ago. The tempatures there were warmer during this period than they are today.

Since we know for a fact that the planet was warmer during the Roman Empire than it is today, the question is what warmed the planet up to those levels after the previous ice age? Did the Romans cause global warming to the point they could grow grape vines in Great Britain?

The British cannot grow grapes today, which means it's not as warm there as it was 2,000 years ago. I agree the planet is warming, but it's not as warm as it has been.

I believe the planets tempature is a natural condition determined by the sun. There is evidence that the ice caps on Mars are melting. Since there are no humans there to cause it, we must assume that the sun is responsible.

Why that can be a natural occurance, but here on Earth, humans are responsible doesn't make any sense to me.

Follow the money and you'll see who's supporting Global Warming and how Mankind is responsible compared those not getting any grant money who say it's not true. Enviromental Lobbiest are now the biggest spender in Washington DC. They far outspend Energy or any other groups.

Eddie

 

[goaliedad]

Help me understand something- how can one gallon of gas ( weighs what- about 8 pounds? ) produce 22 pounds of CO2? What am I missing?

 

[LMTC]

If you really want to "discuss it" as you claim it seems to me counterproductive to start right off by telling us what we should do....
"you should be concerned about running out of fossil fuels."

Suppose I'm not concerned about that (and I'm not).

Stop for a moment and ask yourself how you would feel if I started a thread stating my belief that the global warming campaign (follow the money, follow the money) is promoted at its roots by those who make money from it or its supposed solutions, dismissed the Gore movie in one statement (sounds like propaganda to me) with no actual analysis, AND that I finished my opening with the statement "You should not be concerned about running out of fossil fuels." Would you really consider that an invitation to discuss something? Or a statement of my position?

 

[mjarrels]

I could go for al little global warming right now... don't think the temps will reach 30 today.

mark

 

[scott_vt]

Afternoon Haz,
Gee thats a real tough question, I dunno But I really loved the pic of you and your son, it says it all

In my Vt residence I subscibe to CowPower sponsored by Central Vermont Public Service Corp. Using manure to produce electricity, costs a bit more, but beats importing foreign oil IMHO

 

[Tig]

I'm with you on this. Hats off to you Hazmat!
I installed geothermal in 1990. Most thought I was deaming/crazy. No regrets.
Also put in CF bulbs back then. They are much better and cheaper now than they were in 1990. Still was worth it, only one of the original bulbs has failed.
I have driven 4 cyl vehicles since the 70s. No regrets. (I have had a few 6cyls as second vehicles) My last two cars have been 40MPG.
I compost (also since the 70s) and recycle as much as they will take.
For fishing I use an electric motor. (good fishing close by)
For everyone in Ontario I would encourage you to check out bullfrogpower.com
None of these things were sacrifices or difficult. Most were convenient and actually saved me money.
I do have some not so enviro friendly habbits. I'll work on those.

 

[dooleysm]

I've seen this debated in a variety of different forums. It's hard to change anyone's mind on political or religious views and many people can't argue logically about either. Many people have a hard time separating their feelings from their argument and feel that a rebuttal of their ideas is a personal attack.

I will say that while I don't agree with your thoughts on global warming, we are in agreement on steps we are taking:

1- Paying 2 cents more for renewable (wind & hydro) electricity that does not emit CO2 (every kwH produces ~1.5 lbs CO2)

* I don't have this option, and probably would not do it if it were an option

2- Traded my truck for a car that gets 2X better fuel milage (every gallon of gas burned produces 22 lbs)

* I did this and am now getting 28-31 mpg vs 14-17 mpg

3- Considering geothermal (ground source heat pump) heat for my house to minimize natural gas use.

* I installed a geothermal heat pump when we built our house and am a huge proponent of the technology

4- Trying to convince my wife that we should buy a hybrid & park her SUV unless we need the capacity - weekend trips vs. her commute to work.

* Like I said, I traded my daily truck for a more fuel effecient car

5- Plan to install Solar PV panels on my roof.

* I've looked into it, but it's too expensive

6- Reduce energy use, CF bulbs, better insulation etc.

* I am switching to CF as my incandesants burn out, I used ICFs in my basement and very effecient cellulose in my walls and attic

7- Buying biodiesel for my tractor (see it is related)

* I buy biodiesel because that's what the co-op down the street sells

8- Support renewable energy "in my backyard" (wind projects off the Mass coast etc.)

* I don't do this that I know of

My decisions were all based on financial incentives. People do not want to pollute, but if it's significantly cheaper to buy 'dirty' diesel vs. biodiesel, people are gonig to buy the cheaper. I'm all for living clean, but as soon as it puts undue strain on my way of life, I'm out. I think that's a fairly common view.

 

[SkyPup]

Help me understand something- how can one gallon of gas ( weighs what- about 8 pounds? ) produce 22 pounds of CO2? What am I missing?

Must be all the CO2 coming out of the lungs of the occupants of the gasoline vehicle being added to the combustion of the fuel!

 

[hazmat]

Help me understand something- how can one gallon of gas ( weighs what- about 8 pounds? ) produce 22 pounds of CO2? What am I missing?

Gas is a hydro carbon - mostly C's and H's, the Hydrogen doesn't weigh much, the Carbon is combined with Oxygen from the atmosphere yielding CO2.

The math looks something like this (not exact):

~7# Carbon (gas) + ~15# Oxygen (air) yields ~22# CO2

 

[dirtworksequip]

The weather changes here everyday. I suppose it will continue to change everyday. Even after mankind is long gone the weather will change everyday.Enjoy todays weather, you may not be here tomorrow.

 

[HomeBrew2]

If you really want to "discuss it" as you claim it seems to me counterproductive to start right off by telling us what we should do....
"you should be concerned about running out of fossil fuels."
Suppose I'm not concerned about that (and I'm not).
Stop for a moment and ask yourself how you would feel if I started a thread stating my belief that the global warming campaign (follow the money, follow the money) is promoted at its roots by those who make money from it or its supposed solutions, dismissed the Gore movie in one statement (sounds like propaganda to me) with no actual analysis, AND that I finished my opening with the statement "You should not be concerned about running out of fossil fuels." Would you really consider that an invitation to discuss something? Or a statement of my position?

AMEN !!!!

 

[hazmat]

If you really want to "discuss it" as you claim it seems to me counterproductive to start right off by telling us what we should do....
"you should be concerned about running out of fossil fuels."

Suppose I'm not concerned about that (and I'm not).

Stop for a moment and ask yourself how you would feel if I started a thread stating my belief that the global warming campaign (follow the money, follow the money) is promoted at its roots by those who make money from it or its supposed solutions, dismissed the Gore movie in one statement (sounds like propaganda to me) with no actual analysis, AND that I finished my opening with the statement "You should not be concerned about running out of fossil fuels." Would you really consider that an invitation to discuss something? Or a statement of my position?

To be brutally honest, I suppose I'd try to "enlighten" you, knowing full well that whatever I write here isn't going to change any opinions you already have.

The intention for my post was to raise awareness a bit - maybe there are some members here who haven't really thought about it one way or another. I suppose I also want some physcological reasurrance that I'm not turning into a nutcase - that other regular tractor folks are concerned as well.

I would like to understand your statement "you should NOT be concerned about running out of fossil fuel". At a macro level, I think most would agree that we are probably consuming fossil fuel faster than the earth is creating more. The question is really when are we going to run out? 10 years, 50, 10,000? For the last 20 years "they" have been predicting that the end is near - it does sound like a "Sky is falling" story. Every time I've stopped at the gas station, I'm able to fill up...

 

[SkyPup]

For the last 20 years "they" have been predicting that the end is near - it does sound like a "Sky is falling" story. Every time I've stopped at the gas station, I'm able to fill up...

Actually, they have been predicting the end since the beginning of human linguistics.

However, the best modern solution for all that now is to simply turn off the television and go outdoors and enjoy the weather.

 

[Tig]

Eddie,
Did you know that grapes grow wild in Canada in areas that can have -40C temperatures? From what I have read the grapes have been here since the Vikings first arrived. We actually have a thriving wine industry.
Can you direct me to your source that proves Roman times were warmer than today? It may be so, but it's not consistent with any data I have seen.
The trends of CO2 and temperature are directly proportional over history. (as evidenced by ice patterns and the gasses trapped in ice) The problem now is that the CO2 is way off the chart from anything we can detect in the earths history. AAAS - AAAS News Release

 

[LMTC]

To be brutally honest, I suppose I'd try to "enlighten" you, knowing full well that whatever I write here isn't going to change any opinions you already have.

THIS is exactly the issue. You presume that you have enlightenment for me....what arrogance. 30 years ago we had to listen to the doom and gloomers who told us the planet would be in nuclear winter by 2000....and that the planet would be overpopulated by now....and on and on and on.

You are free to worry and/or make any changes in your lifestyle that you want. I would NEVER be so presumptious as to tell you that you should not do so. Seriously.

However, you do not seem prepared to afford the same liberty to those who don't see the issue as you do. You seem fully prepared to be so pretentious as to assume that you know something I simply don't grasp (I'd try to enlighten you, etc.) It's not your viewpoint on the climate that bothers me...though I disagree with it, I maintain that you have the right to it...it's the attitude that just screams that those who disagree with you just need enlightenment and don't understand.

 

[dmccarty]

However, you do not seem prepared to afford the same liberty to those who don't see the issue as you do. You seem fully prepared to be so pretentious as to assume that you know something I simply don't grasp (I'd try to enlighten you, etc.) It's not your viewpoint on the climate that bothers me...though I disagree with it, I maintain that you have the right to it...it's the attitude that just screams that those who disagree with you just need enlightenment and don't understand.

And if *** YOU *** don't believe the dogma we will take your job, i.e, your lively hood, so we are stopping you from buying groceries, paying the mortgage/rent, etc.

If you think this is extreme, its not. People have protested that the director of the Miami Hurricane Center should be fired because he does not see any evidence that supports the idea the Global Warming has produced more hurricanes. Or more intense hurricanes. Therefore lets fire him and get someone who believes like us.

One of the Meterologists on the Weather Channel has stated that ANY Meterologist who does not believe in Human Caused Global Warming should have their certification revoked...

In other words, Believe Or Else.

If oil runs out. So what?

We will use tar sands. We will convert gas, which is abundant into diesel. We will convert coal to diesel. The processes are well understood. And at $25 per barrel they are economical. Once those fossil fuels run out there will be another energy source. Maybe by then solar will make money sense. Maybe the envormentalist will support Nukes to pay for Hydrogen or electric cars. Or will will have limitless energy from Fusion reactors.

Sorry, I have heard the Gloom and Doom for decades. I can remember when rivers, lakes, and oceans REALLY where polluted. Now people swim in the Hudson. Air quality is vastly improved compared to 30 years ago.

I read this weekend of the latest greatest study proving Human Caused Global Warming. Its being written in four parts. Its still in draft mode. Summaries are being sent to politicians right now before the paper is finished. Its based on science and peer reviewed.

Huh?

How can it be peered reviewed if its a draft?

How can it be peered reviewed if its being published in four parts.

And if it really is science why do politicians get summaries now before its published?

Or is it just more propaganda?

Later,
Dan

 

[turbo36]

Hazmat, while I may not agree with everything you said in your post I do support with your right to say it. I didn't see any arrogance in anything you said, this is what you believe and you feel strongly that you should discuss it on a "discussion" board, what a concept! Unfortunately there are some on this board that see any difference of opinion as an attack of their lifestyle or birthrights.

Right or wrong at least you are thinking about it instead simply saying it doesn't exist.