Climate Change Discussion

[turbo36]

Sorry, I have heard the Gloom and Doom for decades. I can remember when rivers, lakes, and oceans REALLY where polluted. Now people swim in the Hudson. Air quality is vastly improved compared to 30 years ago.
Later,
Dan

I'm a little confused here, are you saying that we listened to the doom and gloom decades ago and enacted laws that led to a clean up of the air and water? Because if you are then isn't that exactly what the environmentalists are trying to do with global warming? Or maybe you mean that the lakes and air got tired of being polluted and just got cleaner on their own? Sort of a "laize fare" environmental policy?

 

[Tig]

Report due out later this week.
CTV.ca | Sea-level issue to rise at climate change summit

 

[LMTC]

Report due out later this week.
CTV.ca | Sea-level issue to rise at climate change summit

Per that link
A report from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change headed by Dr Pachauri who "joined the North Carolina State University, Raleigh, NC, USA, where he obtained an MS in Industrial Engineering in 1972, a PhD in Industrial Engineering and a PhD in Economics".
Biography: Dr. R.K. Pachauri
Industrial Engineering?
Economics?
And that qualifies him regarding climate change exactly how?

"The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) has been established by WMO and UNEP to assess scientific, technical and socio- economic information relevant for the understanding of climate change, its potential impacts and options for adaptation and mitigation."
Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change
WMO The World Meteorological Organization (WMO) is a Specialized Agency of the United Nations
UNEP United Nations Environment Programme

It appears the whole IPCC thing is a UN project. I for one am not impressed with the UN's track record on anything.

 

[AMP762]

I'm just a dumb ol country boy,BUT 50yrs ago gas was cheap,air was clean,I could walk for hrs.in any direction and never see a house or any people.Now I live about 2mi. from where I did then.I can't walk outside without seeing houses.Have you thought theres to many people doing too much consuming.I have had two wives and one child,when me and my wives are gone there will be two less people in the world.I'm doing my part for the planet.

 

[EddieWalker]

Eddie,
Did you know that grapes grow wild in Canada in areas that can have -40C temperatures? From what I have read the grapes have been here since the Vikings first arrived. We actually have a thriving wine industry.
Can you direct me to your source that proves Roman times were warmer than today? It may be so, but it's not consistent with any data I have seen.
The trends of CO2 and temperature are directly proportional over history. (as evidenced by ice patterns and the gasses trapped in ice) The problem now is that the CO2 is way off the chart from anything we can detect in the earths history. AAAS - AAAS News Release

Tig,

Here is the link to the story about Global Warming.

Global Warming: An Unstoppable 1,500-Year Cycle

It's not for those who have there minds made up, but there is point after point about the natural cycle of the planet warming and the planet cooling.

What is a mystery is how this warming cycle is being blamed on humans and not the sun. Does anybody doubt the planet was warmer in the past? Tropical plants are found all over the Northern States and Canada in Archiological digs, but they are extinct today. Why was it warm enough for them to grow then, but not today?

There is a HUGE difference between wine grapes and wild grape growing in Canada!!!! Geeze.

Eddie

 

[N80]

No offense HazMat but I think it is kind of funny that you think any living breathing person in the US needs to be enlightened about global warming. You can't take a dump without someone telling you it is poking a hole in the ozone layer. Seriously, no matter what side you are on, who has missed the constant bombardment about global warming in every aspect of the media?

If you believe it and you feel strongly about it, then I applaude your efforts (seriously and sincerely). That is very much better than feeling strongly about it and not doing anything but ask everyone else to do something about it.

However, I think for some people their actions are prompted by guilt. And if you have guilt over this GW stuff, then your efforts are not sufficient to buy you a Get Out of Guilt Free card. So you drive a car instead of a truck, good. I'm conservative down to my bones and conserving energy is a great idea. I turn out the lights every time I leave a room, might not help, but doesn't hurt. But, if you are, indeed, driving a gasoline powered car, and you think fossil fuels are the cause of GW, then you are guilty as charged, just like the rest of us still driving trucks.

I heard recently about some group that you pay money to and they invest in environmental companies so that you can continue your/our addiction to fossil fuels but not feel guilty about it. That sickens me. Glad you are not one of them!

I don't believe in GW at all in the form that it is being delivered by the media. I think man's contribution to it, if it is real, is minimal. But here's the kicker, if it is dead real, totally man made and barrelling down on us like a freight train, so what? There is nothing any of us can do about it. If, as a country, we all went green and granola and didn't use another drop of oil, then India, China, the Pacific Rim and Russia are going to gobble it right up. They, at least India and China, are starting their glory days of expansion. We love to glorify our own expansion in the 1890's, so who are we to tell them they can't have their day?

So sure, do what you feel is right. Get over the guilt. Don't preach and be prepared to deal with life as it comes at you. Mankind goes through trials constantly. That's not new and even though we've grown awfully soft, we as a nation will have our own trials and we'll deal with them. But one thing is for sure, virtually none of the things that we predict will be our greatest trials end up being the toughest problems. So be prepared.

 

[Egon]

Canada has areas in which wine grapes are grown.

 

[Raddad]

You are what you read.

 

[tallyho8]

Hazmat, I take neither side in this controversy, but I applaud you for your reduction of usage of our natural resources. I wish millions of more people would conserve because I believe in the law of supply and demand and I know that if many of you used less that it would bring down the price of energy and I could get it cheaper. I also try to conserve quite a bit, not neccessarily because of global warming, but because I am not a rich person and I am able to save a lot by using less energy.

AMP762, I also agree with you that overpopulation causes many of our problems and we only have one child too. (Though, as I get older I do often wish we had had more). The main problem with this is that it seems like I often see the people who I believe would be able to be the best parents only having 1 or no children and the people who are not fit to be parents, or people in this and other countries in complete poverty having a houseful. Before I get hostile replies to this, let me state that there are many terrific parents with multiple children being raised perfectly, it's just that there are so many others who are not able to raise children for economic or mental reasons and often these kids become a drain on our society.

I really enjoy this forum and the ability to discuss things reasonably with people from all over the world and hope I have not said anything to offend anyone.

 

[EddieWalker]

Canada has areas in which wine grapes are grown.

So do lots of places. They are all warmer than England was 2,000 years ago.

Plus, the Romans were doing it without any genetic enhancement or fans or anything high tech that is used in modern day vineyards. California grows lots of grapes, yet they struggle with the cold weather every year. Do they have to worry about the grapes freezing in Canada?

Just imagine what it must have been like when the Romans were able to grow grape vines to make wine?

Eddie

 

[K7147]

To be brutally honest, I suppose I'd try to "enlighten" you, knowing full well that whatever I write here isn't going to change any opinions you already have.

The intention for my post was to raise awareness a bit - maybe there are some members here who haven't really thought about it one way or another. I suppose I also want some physcological reasurrance that I'm not turning into a nutcase - that other regular tractor folks are concerned as well.

I would like to understand your statement "you should NOT be concerned about running out of fossil fuel". At a macro level, I think most would agree that we are probably consuming fossil fuel faster than the earth is creating more. The question is really when are we going to run out? 10 years, 50, 10,000? For the last 20 years "they" have been predicting that the end is near - it does sound like a "Sky is falling" story. Every time I've stopped at the gas station, I'm able to fill up...

Hazmat!

Your “green” actions are commendable and many others follow suit so you can rest assured that some other tractor folk are as concerned. That said, you may well be turning into a “nutcase” if you think that an application of logic and enlightenment will stick to the Teflon surfaces of those with a closed mind.

Did I ever explain my theory of infinity to you?

Ken

 

[TCowner]

Global warming seems to be on everyone's mind these days but the truth be told is that with the exception of the few us that enjoy winter and love the snow, most don't. In Southeastern Minnesota a "typical" January would involve about three spells of 20-30 below nights with highs of 10-15 below for five to seven straight days. ANd of course you would add a 25-35 mph NW wind dropping windchills to around 80-90 below range. Agains about three of these episodes just in the month of January.

SO the reality nobody, except me cause I love winter, wants a return to those days. Most talk tough and it sound really cool to talk about removing all of the humvees from the road and inserting the hybrids but if you really asked 95% of the U.S. population to tell the truth they would say, bring on global warming.

As a winter lover I hope its just a cycle but I am worried a bit. I hope I live long enough for the next ice age. Because if I do I will have an excuse to get a new tractor with a factory installed quiet and warm cab. But I say bring back the days of brutal wind chills. It the best way I know to keep the fire ants and killer bees in Texas.

 

[N80]

You are what you read.

That thought seems to be about a hundred years too old! Maybe it should say: You are what you watch (on TV).

 

[Tig]

We don't make wine from the wild grapes but during a dry summer they make great jelly. We have vineyards where we grow grape for make wine. As for tropical plants in North America? Could you post I link so I can check this out? Continental drift could be one explanation.
From the link you posted, the biggest flaw in their stance that this is a purely natural phenomena is; "Singer and Avery note the studies also show that temperature changes preceded the CO2 changes by about 800 years."
Right now CO2 levels are 27% higher than at any time in the past 650,000 years. That is not the result of the last 800 year warming cycle. See the link in my previous post.
It's not hard to find more credible sources to disprove the substance of the link you posted.
In the antartic the Müller Ice Shelf is gone (melted) after 16,000 years. (that would be 11 natural warming/cooling cycles) An interesting observation that cotradicts the authors statements about us being safe because of "the melt-resistant Antarctic.".
NASA has "their minds made up". EO News: Study Shows Potential for Antarctic Climate Change - October 6, 2004
What happens when me melt the ice? How the antartic regulates climate around the globe. Climate Change Position Statement
Time will tell how this all plays out.

 

[k6dyc]

[tongue firmly planted in cheek] Should I sell my diesel Excursion (I think the biggest SUV available) and my F350 Powerstroke and my AM General Hummer H1 and my Bobcat because of their contribution to global warming? Maybe we should all sell our tractors and start posting at HorseDrawnPlowsByNet.com.

Seriously, at least the conversation is polite here, but I think I'll pass on this discussion and go back and read Eddie's lake creation thread again, it's more on topic for this forum and I enjoy it MUCH more!

 

[Egon]

Eddie:
There are some problems with grapes freezing in Canada. Ice wine requires frozen grapes and there are times the freeze does not come soon enough for the vineyard.

Backyard grapes in the picture.

 

[thingy]

Global warming,,new yuppy catch phrase,,,is it a bad thing if the globe warms up a little? no,,,its not,,,how much is the worst gluom and doom sayers saying,,5 degrees?People in 1/3 of the world would welcome global warming. The vikings settled greenland,,and called it greenland what,,5-600 years ago?,,than we had global cooling and run them off it??something like that,,they didn't have coal power plants than and cars,,,,the dinasors lived in alaska,,they have found mastadones,[big hairy elephants],,frozen with flowers in their mouth,in alaska,,[musta been quick huh?],,than theres that ice age thing that came and went,and made ohio level,,,,,,point is,,we don't know whats happening now but theres a good chance its happened before,,and besides,there ain't a **** thing we can do about it anyways. thats my view,,,,don't worry,,be happy,,,,thingy

 

[EddieWalker]

Eddie:
There are some problems with grapes freezing in Canada. Ice wine requires frozen grapes and there are times the freeze does not come soon enough for the vineyard.

Backyard grapes in the picture.

Egon,

Sorry, I should not have replied to your comment on grapes in Canada. It has no bearing on my earlier post about wine grapes in England 2,000 years ago.

When the Romans grew wine grapes, the weather in England was much warmer. I have no idea if wine grapes could grow in Canada 2,000 years ago.

What I found interesting about this is that they "DID" grow in a place when the planet was warmer thousands of years ago, and today when we're supposedely worred about global warming, they will not grow there because it's not warm enough.

How much warmer will this natural warming cycle have to raise the tempature of the planet until it's warm enough for wine grapes to grow in England?

Eddie

 

[AndyM]

[tongue firmly planted in cheek]Maybe we should all sell our tractors and start posting at HorseDrawnPlowsByNet.com.

No, it's not HorseDrawnPlowsByNet.com, it's just plain HorsesByNet.com

 

[LMTC]

Hazmat!

Your “green” actions are commendable and many others follow suit so you can rest assured that some other tractor folk are as concerned. That said, you may well be turning into a “nutcase” if you think that an application of logic and enlightenment will stick to the Teflon surfaces of those with a closed mind.

Did I ever explain my theory of infinity to you?

Ken

So only your side of the discussion possesses logic and enlightenment?

Isn't it interesting which side of the "discussion" keeps tossing demeaning remarks at anyone disagreeing with their position? If you don't agree with them you have a closed mind, need enlightenment, or you "see any difference of opinion as an attack of their lifestyle or birthrights." (not sure where the poster pulled that one out of)
I do not accuse them of needing enlightenment, or having closed minds, regarding their belief that GW is an issue....my only, and consistent, criticism has been of this attitude of superiority, this unwillingness to accept that some others do not think GW is a valid issue. Wow, what a tolerant lot.