Climate Change Discussion

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   / Climate Change Discussion #281  
"No one disagrees with the notion that global warming is occurring, but to discount the fact that it has anything to do with that giant flaming ball of fire in our sky that we can barely look at without being blinded is ignorance unparalleled.

How do we square the fact that almost every planet in our solar system is simultaneously undergoing temperature change and volatile weather patterns? Does this not suggest that global warming is a natural cycle as a result of the evolving nature of the sun and other celestial phenomena? Can Al Gore fill me in on this one?"


Thanks Bird, about the best read on the subject. :)
 
   / Climate Change Discussion #282  
IH3444, it's a well known fact that the Sun could care less about whether there is life on Earth or not......global warming will certainly occur when it turns into a SuperNova! :D
 
   / Climate Change Discussion #283  
Quote from IH3444: How do we square the fact that almost every planet in our solar system is simultaneously undergoing temperature change and volatile weather patterns? Does this not suggest that global warming is a natural cycle as a result of the evolving nature of the sun and other celestial phenomena? Can Al Gore fill me in on this one?"


I wont pretend to be Al, but Id say it says that we are in a natural warming cycle. Id say it does not say anything about the extent of our unnatural contribution to the phenomenon as exhibited on Earth.

In reading from the attached websites I am very troubled to see that hysteria, and religion, ~catalyzed by ego and greed are usurping the true scientific pursuit.

Im sittin here on a cold day oxidizing carbon stored in wood and releasing it into the atmosphere to keep the house warm. Is it better for the Earth if I keep it warm and toasty - - or just tolerable? I actually want to know.
Larry
 
   / Climate Change Discussion #284  
New coastlines. Okay. So what? I think some people have this sudden tsunami image in their heads when they think about this. Even if GW is real, even if it is my fault, the rising tide is going to be an event that encompasses not decades, but centuries! (At least according to the much ballyhooed UN report). So its going to take years and years. There will be sudden catastrophic events too. Maybe more than usual. But not that much more. Anyone remember Bangladesh in the 1970's? Its going to take a while to top that. The world will have time to adapt. Will terrible things happen in the meantime? You betcha. When have they not?

The fact remains that until some of the GW activists can show me the list of the good things that will happen due to their proposed global warming, I refuse to take them seriously. It exposes their agenda. And that's part of the reason no one wants to talk about the sun. If the sun is the cause of the alleged warming, then there will be no justification for the redistribution of wealth in the west (no one expects China and India to give a flying flip about GW.)
 
   / Climate Change Discussion #285  
N80 said:
New coastlines. Okay. So what?

A lot of IF's in the GW equation, but your comments brought to my mind the images of Katrina. It didn't take centuries for that, and here again - what if mankind was responsible for that?

I think we have a responsibility to ensure that we are doing our best NOT to contribute to our own demise.

-Mike Z.
 
   / Climate Change Discussion #286  
Don't forget that Katrina, at the time of landfall, was not an uber-hurricane. It was a pretty average Gulf Coast hurricane. Most of the horrors from Katrina came from where it hit and who it hit. New Orleans had been patiently waiting for that storm, and doing nothing to prepare for it for decades. Couple that with a population that had grown so totally dependant on the government and welfare that it couldn't even manage to leave when told to leave, and a response by local, state and federal governments that was inadequate in some cases and criminal in others and you get what you got. So yes, mankind _was_ responsible for the Katrina disaster, but no one's SUV or gassy cow had anything to do with it.

My uncle, who lives in the French Quarter rode the storm out. Virtually no damage to his home. Had phone service back within a day or two. Streets flooded but not into his home. The problem was lower lying neighborhoods, inadequate levis and an almost unbelievable willingness for the poor to sit there despite all warnings to the contrary and no one came to help them. Not the mayor, not the governor, not the president. And they had days to do it in, and in many cases, they only needed to go as far as the French Quarter.

Similar case with Andrew. A huge amount of the damage in Andrew resulted in shoddy building codes and standards. The roofs on those slap dash, cookie cutter suburban homes that go on as far as the eye can see where barely attached.

When _much_ stronger hurricanes come ashore in less populated places (I remember several around Eglin AFB in the 90's) the damage is tremendous, but it just isn't to a significant number of humans or things because the humans and things aren't there. No one conjure up these storms to defend global warming.

And this is one of the main points in an Atlantic Monthly article I read a few years ago. If GW is a fact, then there is little we can do to stop it (which is _exactly_ what the current UN report says, though the GW people want to skip over that part) then the way we prepare for and respond to the changes is what's important. It is more important in places like central America where more and more people are moving into previously uninhabited coastal areas. These are the places where the huge human tragedies will occur. Not becuase of GW, but because they are there, on the coast and will have no warning systems, no FEMA, no US Coast Guard, Nat'l Guard, etc. In the US it won't matter. It certainly doesn't keep the folks in California from building their homes in areas prone to mudslides and wildfires or people on the East Coast from building MacMansions a foot or two above the spring high tide. FEMA will take care of them.
 
   / Climate Change Discussion #287  
N80 said:
The fact remains that until some of the GW activists can show me the list of the good things that will happen due to their proposed global warming, I refuse to take them seriously. It exposes their agenda.

George,

While it's obvious that you and I are on the same side, it's also pretty obvious that you are allot smarter than I am. It's been a pleasure reading your posts and following along with your logic. You explain this much better than I ever could hope to.

The comment of yours that I quoted really does cut right to the core of the re real agenda. Those who are accusing man of Global Warming and all the horror that will happen, have never told us what might happen as a result that could be positive.

My earlier post about more rain was a serious one. If we have more water on the planet, and the planet is warmer, won't we have more rain? Would it be reasonable to expect better yields out of farms? Longer growing seasons with more water. Will the dry deserts begin to flourish because of more rain? Will more land become available for people to live, farm and grow crops that were previously under glaciers or covered in snow for much of the year?

The lost coastlines will just relocate further in if they have to. Holland has proven that levis work. I'm sure that will be part of the solution if it becomes needed. But so far, Katrina has reminded us that the worse years for Huricanes was in the 1030's. Last year was one of the very best. If we look at this evidence, Global Warming has resulted in fewer and weaker huricanes.

New Orleans was a known disaster waiting to happen. Bill Clinton increased spending to an all time high to do repairs and upgrades to the levis. Nothing was done because the the Army Corps of Engineers was tied up in court proving that certain bird, fish and plants wouldn't be harmed in upgradig the levi. George Bush increased funding for the Levis above Clintons level and the same thing happened. It was no secret that the levi system would fail. Every report ever made predicted it. What is a suprise is that nobody did anything to deal with it, or even follow the plans that they had already drawn up for when it happened.

How could anybody connect the Levi failures to Global Warming is just beyond me. It's grasping at straws and borderline criminal misderiction in my opinion. There is not relevance from one to the other.

Eddie
 
   / Climate Change Discussion #288  
Dennis Miller said it best:

If there is a hole in the atmosphere, and heat rises, then the heat should go out through the hole - you can’t have it both ways.

MYTH : Planet earth is currently undergoing global warming
FACT: Accurate and representative temperature measurements from satellites and balloons show that the planet has cooled significantly in the last two or three years, losing in only 18 months 15% of the claimed warming which took over 100 years to appear — that warming was only one degree fahrenheit (half of one degree Celsius) anyway, and part of this is a systematic error from groundstation readings which are inflated due to the 'urban heat island effect' i.e. local heat retention due to urban sprawl, not global warming...and it is these, 'false high' ground readings which are then programmed into the disreputable climate models, which live up to the GIGO acronym — garbage in, garbage out.


MYTH : There are only a tiny handful of maverick scientists who dispute that man-made global warming theory is true.

FACT There are nearly 18,000 signatures from scientists worldwide on a petition called The Oregon Petition which says that there is no evidence for man-made global warming theory nor for any impact from mankind's activities on climate.
Many scientists believe that the Kyoto agreement is a total waste of time and one of the biggest political scams ever perpetrated on the public ... as H L Mencken said "the fundamental aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed, and hence clamorous to be led to safety, by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary" ... the desire to save the world usually fronts a desire to rule it.
 
   / Climate Change Discussion #289  
N80 said:
Don't forget that Katrina, at the time of landfall, was not an uber-hurricane. It was a pretty average Gulf Coast hurricane. Most of the horrors from Katrina came from where it hit and who it hit. New Orleans had been patiently waiting for that storm, and doing nothing to prepare for it for decades. Couple that with a population that had grown so totally dependant on the government and welfare that it couldn't even manage to leave when told to leave, and a response by local, state and federal governments that was inadequate in some cases and criminal in others and you get what you got. So yes, mankind _was_ responsible for the Katrina disaster, but no one's SUV or gassy cow had anything to do with it.

My uncle, who lives in the French Quarter rode the storm out. Virtually no damage to his home. Had phone service back within a day or two. Streets flooded but not into his home. The problem was lower lying neighborhoods, inadequate levis and an almost unbelievable willingness for the poor to sit there despite all warnings to the contrary and no one came to help them. Not the mayor, not the governor, not the president. And they had days to do it in, and in many cases, they only needed to go as far as the French Quarter.
QUOTE]

Most of what you said here is true but I must disagree with some of your Katrina falacies.

I don't blame Katrina on co2. Hurricanes were sinking ships off the Florida coast years before GW. The winds from Betsy in 1965 did more damge in our area than the winds of Katrina.

However, evacuating is far more difficult than you make it seem. And who would know in advance that you just had to evacuate to the French Quarter even if there was a place there that would accept 1,000,000 evacuees for 2 years or more? Most of the other places that flooded had never flooded before so we had no way of knowing which areas would flood. (Though I made sure all the properties I own were well above sea level before I purchased and they were all safe) There were 4 evacuations called for that year before Katrina. In order to get out of town to a safe spot you must leave 4 days before the hurricane hits. 4 days before a hurricane they usually predict it will hit between Pensacola Florida and Galveston Texas. This means 20 million people must evacuate. TO WHERE? There aren't that many motel rooms in the south. There aren't enough highways to handle the traffic. Evacuation means you are out of work without pay for a week or more and paying big dollars to evacuate. IF you wait till 2 days before the storm hits to narrow down where ground zero is, then it is too late to evacuate. The highways are gridlocked. There are no motel rooms within 500 miles. I'm sure you saw the traffic jams on TV of people trying to get out of Houston for Rita. After you evacuate 4 times in a year for nothing because the hurricane misses, most people wear out and run out of money and stay home the next time. Then the big one comes. You live here for 50 years knowing the levees could break and flood someday but you always presume the officials have plans to fix a levee. The levee breaks. Officials run around like chickens with their heads cut off not knowing what to do and with NO plans. The pumps are turned off because the public workers who man the pumps were evacuated hundreds of miles away and can't get back. (We paid many millions of dollars in tax money for those pumps and had NO idea that when we needed them most they were going to turn them off and run away.) Jefferson Parish (New Orleans largest suburb) had no broken levees and had billions of dollars in flood damage simply because the pumps were turned off. When they were turned on days later the water went right down. The remedy the politicians came up with was to let New Orleans flood through the broken levee until it fills up level with the lake, THEN fix the levee and pump the water out for the next 3 months.

EVACUATION IS NOT AN OPTION! A very rich city would go bankrupt evacuating it's citizens many times a year.

The federal gov't maintaining IT'S levees that it built and has complete power over, IS the only option. Louisiana has been fighting the feds for years to repair THEIR levees and build them strong enough to provide safety for it's citizens. The feds ALWAYS approve money for the levees just like they are doing now for the rebuilding of New Orleans. The truth is that the money is always just APPROVED and never received. Just like the 10 billion dollars they approved for the Road Home program a year ago and so far the federally approved company writing the checks has been paid 700,000,000.00 for writing 500 checks to the victims for less than a millon dollars.

Please forgive me for rambling but Katrina is a sore spot for many of us in the area who have lost so much, friends, relatives, property, neighborhoods and more, while the news media makes it look like it affected no one but some poor dumb souls on welfare who were too stupid to leave.:mad:
 
   / Climate Change Discussion #290  
Larry, this is the best advice I can give you about your wood stove...:D YouTube - Crazy World of Arthur Brown Fire

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Tallyho, the Katrina disaster was in the making for decades. The Army Corp of Engineers had battled the Sierra Club and lost in court to reinforce the leeves. Before that they battled the EPA I believe it was, and lost to reinforce the leeves. Now all of a sudden it's the goverment's fault that people decided to live in areas which were below sea level, and risk , then experience the extreme hardships that those decisions resulted in. Kinda reminds me of people sueing the tabacco companies for them contracting bad health due to smoking. The goverment labeling warning about smoking was begun in the 60's. We make our choices and must live, or die by the results of those decisions. A word to the wise is usually suficent, everyone else must experience it to learn. Blaming someone else for our troubles is a basic human nature.......I don't hear anyone belly aching in upper state New York about being burried under 12 plus feet of snow, and it being the goverment's fault. :eek:

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Antarctic temperatures disagree with climate model predictions
 
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