In the "Furrow" magazine by John Deere published in 1953 I read an article describing a "complete machine system for one man small hay bales" using a baler with a kicker or thrower onto a hay wagon and then pushed on a conveyor belt which transported the bales up into the top and then across of the barn were they were deposited. Where could I get a conveyor system and what type of baler / kicker system should be used. Thank you.
complete machine system for one man small hay bales
- Thread starter terence
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Welcome to TBN. 
DAY
Platinum Member
Yes, welcome!
The "machine" you describe sound a bit Rube Goldberg, but was part of a long line of agricultural implements, starting with the moldboard blow, and progressing into the late 19th Century with massive combines pulled by huge teams of horses or mules.
The first balers merely dropped the twine or wire tied product on the ground, to be hoisted onto a wagon by strapping youths in summer heat. None cheered louder with the arrival of the kicker, be it belt of hydraulic powered!
There were also wagons that were PTO powered, and picked up and stacked the bales without human hands involved. Back at the barn the entire load was was removed at once, again without human contact.
Today the round baler/large square baler rules, and the tightly packed hay is often left in the field- wrapped or not- until needed.
And then there is haylage.
Hay elevators are still to be found at auction, as are older balers with kickers. They become obsolete before they wear out, and parts are still available.
The "machine" you describe sound a bit Rube Goldberg, but was part of a long line of agricultural implements, starting with the moldboard blow, and progressing into the late 19th Century with massive combines pulled by huge teams of horses or mules.
The first balers merely dropped the twine or wire tied product on the ground, to be hoisted onto a wagon by strapping youths in summer heat. None cheered louder with the arrival of the kicker, be it belt of hydraulic powered!
There were also wagons that were PTO powered, and picked up and stacked the bales without human hands involved. Back at the barn the entire load was was removed at once, again without human contact.
Today the round baler/large square baler rules, and the tightly packed hay is often left in the field- wrapped or not- until needed.
And then there is haylage.
Hay elevators are still to be found at auction, as are older balers with kickers. They become obsolete before they wear out, and parts are still available.
Day,
Thank you for your most helpful reply. Is it worth the expense to buy this equipment and produce small 50 pound hay bales hoping to sell for $3-$5? I have over 250 acres that grows grass which produces over 700 hundred large square bales weighing from 900 - 1200 pounds each which I receive $3 for each large bale. I would like to harvsts my own hay and make a considerable amount more. Thank you.
Thank you for your most helpful reply. Is it worth the expense to buy this equipment and produce small 50 pound hay bales hoping to sell for $3-$5? I have over 250 acres that grows grass which produces over 700 hundred large square bales weighing from 900 - 1200 pounds each which I receive $3 for each large bale. I would like to harvsts my own hay and make a considerable amount more. Thank you.
DAY
Platinum Member
I sure read you wrong, terence! I assumed you were looking for a system to make some hay on five or so acres!
With 250 acres some serious machinery is needed. From your numbers, you would be making 14,000 fifty pound bales PER CUTTING. At $3 a bale, that is $42,000. Talk to your bank about an ag loan!
John Deere Ag - New Equipment Features for 328 Twine Baler
The John Deere 328 square twine baler. List $19,000.
Machine Finder (Used Hay Equipment - John Deere MachineFinder) has a 1997 used 328 for $9,750.
With 250 acres some serious machinery is needed. From your numbers, you would be making 14,000 fifty pound bales PER CUTTING. At $3 a bale, that is $42,000. Talk to your bank about an ag loan!
John Deere Ag - New Equipment Features for 328 Twine Baler
The John Deere 328 square twine baler. List $19,000.
Machine Finder (Used Hay Equipment - John Deere MachineFinder) has a 1997 used 328 for $9,750.
beenthere
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terence
Post in one of the forums other than this "Introduction to New Members" and you will get additional information and help.
But would be good to provide a better description of what you really have in mind. Since 1953, there have been many advances in handling hay. Only one of them was bale kickers and bale handlers for mowing away bales.
Also, where you are located will help with the answers.
Post in one of the forums other than this "Introduction to New Members" and you will get additional information and help.
But would be good to provide a better description of what you really have in mind. Since 1953, there have been many advances in handling hay. Only one of them was bale kickers and bale handlers for mowing away bales.
Also, where you are located will help with the answers.
slowzuki
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Do you have storage for 14,000 to 28,000 bales? That is a large barn.
You would need a bale baron or similar with a large tractor and high output baler to do the baling in a reasonable time. Are you mowing too?
You'd need about 100,000$ in equipment to do this with one man in a reasonable amount of time with one person, plus the right buildings to store. If you have say 3 people available, you can do it with about 15,000$ of equipment if you're very careful shopping and you all work hard.
Have you ever hayed before? To be honest, 2100$ rent without lifting a finger is pretty darned good.
You would need a bale baron or similar with a large tractor and high output baler to do the baling in a reasonable time. Are you mowing too?
You'd need about 100,000$ in equipment to do this with one man in a reasonable amount of time with one person, plus the right buildings to store. If you have say 3 people available, you can do it with about 15,000$ of equipment if you're very careful shopping and you all work hard.
Have you ever hayed before? To be honest, 2100$ rent without lifting a finger is pretty darned good.
smstonypoint
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Terence,
First, a few thoughts on the rent you are now receiving.
As I understand it, you are "renting" your 250 acres in return for a payment of approximately $2,100/year (700 bales @ $3/bale). This works out to $8.4/acre year. This is not purely a "cash rent" situation in that you are assuming some production risks -- if there is a poor (good) growing season, you receive less (more). However, you don't have any price risk -- you receive $3/bale regardless of hay price variation from year to year.
Using 1200 pounds/bale, the land is producing 420 tons/year or 1.68 tons/acre/year. I don't know where you are located, but your average hay yield is below the national average for 2010 -- 1.95 tons/acre (http://usda.mannlib.cornell.edu/usda/current/CropProdSu/CropProdSu-01-12-2011_new_format.pdf).
I am not aware of any reported data on rents for hay land for each of the individual states. However, the USDA reports average cash rents for pasture for the individual states. The US average was $11/acre in 2010 (NASS - Charts and Maps - Farm Values and Cash Rents). I'm not sure about the relationship between hay land and pasture rents in the various states, but in Iowa, the hay land rents are considerably higher (http://www.extension.iastate.edu/publications/fm1851.pdf)
Whether your rent is fair to you and the farmer is your call. There is considerable variation in rents within and across counties.
Now, to the economics of producing the hay yourself -- can you obtain a return to your land (after allowing for returns to your labor, management, and risks) greater than $8.4/acre per year? The answer depends on your revenues and costs of producing hay. The agricultural economics departments in many land-grant universities publish prototype enterprise budgets for forages that you can modify as needed to reflect your situation. Here's an example for NC -- Forage Budgets.
Note that a substantial investment in equipment may be required.
Note that you will have to include the costs of maintaining the hay land (e.g., liming, fertilization, etc.)
Note the labor requirements -- they will not be trivial for 250 acres.
You should also be thinking about the storage and marketing of your hay crop.
You should also be aware that you will face both production and price risks if you DIY.
Steve
Last edited:
I bought a John Deere 7130 at an auction this winter so I need to gather the balance of the equipment. The math for 2 tons or 80 - 50# bales an acre times 250 acres times a modest $3 a bale = $60,000 for each cutting with hopefully two or three cuttings per year.
Is this sober thinking?
How much do the large squares bales sell for in your area? Perhaps this is a more efficient approach?
Thank you.
Is this sober thinking?
How much do the large squares bales sell for in your area? Perhaps this is a more efficient approach?
Thank you.
slowzuki
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Remember to add fertilizer, reseeding, transport, wastage and costs to sell and market the hay to your figuring.
That much land on one tractor is possible, I assume that is a newish 7130. It is really too small for a large square baler but it would run a big round baler. If you don't know the markets for local rounds and squares, you may have trouble selling that much hay at your asking price. That is a lot of hay to sell.
5x6 rounds on 250 acres is far far easier to deal with in a one man show. With your yields it sounds like large cheap wheel rakes would work perfectly. A 12 ft disc mower would run nicely behind your 7130. With a loader double spike and double rear spike or a round bale wagon you could quickly get your rounds or squares off the field to allow regrowth. Round bales can also be tarped if you don't have the indoor storage.
That much land on one tractor is possible, I assume that is a newish 7130. It is really too small for a large square baler but it would run a big round baler. If you don't know the markets for local rounds and squares, you may have trouble selling that much hay at your asking price. That is a lot of hay to sell.
5x6 rounds on 250 acres is far far easier to deal with in a one man show. With your yields it sounds like large cheap wheel rakes would work perfectly. A 12 ft disc mower would run nicely behind your 7130. With a loader double spike and double rear spike or a round bale wagon you could quickly get your rounds or squares off the field to allow regrowth. Round bales can also be tarped if you don't have the indoor storage.
I am not exactly sure this is what the article refers to, but I have a mow elevator with 3 stations on it. Each station has guide bars which can divert hay bales to the left or right, depending on which diverter bar is swung into position. The guide bars can be controlled by ropes from below. This elevator is a tradition pipe type transporter with these stations inserted every 20 feet or so. The elevator is usually mounted horizontally and feed from the ground level by a conventional elevator, either pipe or grain style. With the dump station designated by a swing bar, the hay bales are shunted off the main line off to the side making piles. When so many bales are dumped, or the pile gets to a certain height, you pull a cord to close the shunt and open another one. You also have the end of the mow elevator avalable for making a pile.
Given a welder and some square or round tubing, you could easily make up a few of these diverter stations.
Its not a computer controlled inventory management system if thats what you were thinking about, but is does work for a one man hay loading task. I keep this elevator at elbow height so that I can unload the barn too. Just reverse the motor and the bales are easily transported out to customers and my delivery trailer. Customers like this system very much because its easy to work with, it means lifting a bale at a time, not carrying it, can be operated with more than one person putting bales on it. and minimizes danger to the person supervising below (they can see the bales coming along from below instead of a surprize hit on the head and messing up their hair).
Given a welder and some square or round tubing, you could easily make up a few of these diverter stations.
Its not a computer controlled inventory management system if thats what you were thinking about, but is does work for a one man hay loading task. I keep this elevator at elbow height so that I can unload the barn too. Just reverse the motor and the bales are easily transported out to customers and my delivery trailer. Customers like this system very much because its easy to work with, it means lifting a bale at a time, not carrying it, can be operated with more than one person putting bales on it. and minimizes danger to the person supervising below (they can see the bales coming along from below instead of a surprize hit on the head and messing up their hair).
Briana03
Elite Member
Hello & WELCOME to TractorByNet.com!
I have moved your thread to the Ag Tractor & Machinery Forum. You'll get a better response there.
I have moved your thread to the Ag Tractor & Machinery Forum. You'll get a better response there.
Barry Bowen
Gold Member
Terence,
you are embarking on a huge potential project. From where you are standing, the pit falls may way out weigh the rewards. I have been in the hay business for years, and I can assure you it is NOT as simple as it looks. To make good hay is extremely labor intensive. There are no short cuts to good quality. You need to know as much about your soil,and plants as you do about your equipment and how to use it.
What kind of grass fields are these and where are you located? Did you know that pregnant mares cannot tolerate fescue with endophyts? It can cause spontaneous abortions and well as still births, and no one will insure you against this. What would you market be? Cattle pay cheap, small horse people who have them as pets tend to pay much better but require much much better quality then cattle. If you are dealing with orchard grass or most meadow grasses, if first cutting gives 2 ton to the acre, second cutting will be about 1/2 ton per acre. First cutting is where seed production takes places, and all later cutting are just vegetative leaf. Leaf is higher nutrition, but lower volume.
You may want to consider working for some one in the hay business for a while to learn it at their expense. Other suggestion, renegotiate rent to be a percentage of sale price, say around 15% or so. Far more equitable. I pay percentages here in MD, and my rents range from 60-110 per acre. This is a very fair price for my area anyway. What is the current tenant selling the hay for cattle or horses? Cow hay will bring under 100 a ton, and horse hay will bring much more. 1200 pound bale, 100 a ton, 15%= $9 per bale, and that is very fair or even low.
Some times the best way to make a small fortune is to start with a big one. Do not take loans. If you cannot do this out of pocket, do not do it. It took me years to get my equipment together, but it is all paid for. (3 tractors, 2 square balers, 1 round baler, 3 rakes, 2 tedders, 4 elevators, discbine, and 13 wagons just for starters wait till you see what they cost to maintain.) More expensive equipment is not usually any better. I have seen 4 year old balers ready for the scrap heap, and 40 year old ones well cared for, like mine, produce thousands of bales per year. It will mater what you can do to work on your equipment more than what you pay for it. I could go on for ever, but may be you need to sit down and wait for this feeling of want to make hay to go away? If not, come on in the water is warm and all are welcome to sink or swim.
you are embarking on a huge potential project. From where you are standing, the pit falls may way out weigh the rewards. I have been in the hay business for years, and I can assure you it is NOT as simple as it looks. To make good hay is extremely labor intensive. There are no short cuts to good quality. You need to know as much about your soil,and plants as you do about your equipment and how to use it.
What kind of grass fields are these and where are you located? Did you know that pregnant mares cannot tolerate fescue with endophyts? It can cause spontaneous abortions and well as still births, and no one will insure you against this. What would you market be? Cattle pay cheap, small horse people who have them as pets tend to pay much better but require much much better quality then cattle. If you are dealing with orchard grass or most meadow grasses, if first cutting gives 2 ton to the acre, second cutting will be about 1/2 ton per acre. First cutting is where seed production takes places, and all later cutting are just vegetative leaf. Leaf is higher nutrition, but lower volume.
You may want to consider working for some one in the hay business for a while to learn it at their expense. Other suggestion, renegotiate rent to be a percentage of sale price, say around 15% or so. Far more equitable. I pay percentages here in MD, and my rents range from 60-110 per acre. This is a very fair price for my area anyway. What is the current tenant selling the hay for cattle or horses? Cow hay will bring under 100 a ton, and horse hay will bring much more. 1200 pound bale, 100 a ton, 15%= $9 per bale, and that is very fair or even low.
Some times the best way to make a small fortune is to start with a big one. Do not take loans. If you cannot do this out of pocket, do not do it. It took me years to get my equipment together, but it is all paid for. (3 tractors, 2 square balers, 1 round baler, 3 rakes, 2 tedders, 4 elevators, discbine, and 13 wagons just for starters wait till you see what they cost to maintain.) More expensive equipment is not usually any better. I have seen 4 year old balers ready for the scrap heap, and 40 year old ones well cared for, like mine, produce thousands of bales per year. It will mater what you can do to work on your equipment more than what you pay for it. I could go on for ever, but may be you need to sit down and wait for this feeling of want to make hay to go away? If not, come on in the water is warm and all are welcome to sink or swim.
DAY
Platinum Member
"you are embarking on a huge potential project"-Barry Bowen
Listen to the man! A quarter of an acre in tomatoes- you can sell them beside the road and make a few bucks. 250 acres of tomatoes, and you need a contract with Heinz- and migrant housing!
Same with the hay. Do you own the land? Where is it? Why hay? You can make more dollars per acre with corn or beans.
It sounds like you are not a farmer. If so, asking about machinery is like asking about what type of equipment should I buy to open a dentist office.
Listen to the man! A quarter of an acre in tomatoes- you can sell them beside the road and make a few bucks. 250 acres of tomatoes, and you need a contract with Heinz- and migrant housing!
Same with the hay. Do you own the land? Where is it? Why hay? You can make more dollars per acre with corn or beans.
It sounds like you are not a farmer. If so, asking about machinery is like asking about what type of equipment should I buy to open a dentist office.
flusher
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That's a nice tractor. I assume that you're harvesting the native grasses only (no planting, just fertilizing and overseeding).
I suppose that to go haying on 250 acres, you'd need a some type of large grass seeder/fertilizer spreader (Brillion, grain drill with grass seeding attachment, no-till drill?), a large (10ft wide) mower/conditioner, rotary rake, tedder, baler, bale stacker.
One of my neighbor farms about 200 acres of hay (oats, beardless wheat, etc). He uses a Steiger Super Wildcat (about 170 hp) to pull a 15-ft wide offset disc for primary tillage (no moldboard plowing needed), a large Landpride seeder with seed and fertilizer boxes pulled by a 70hp Kubota tractor, a NH self-propelled swather with 15-ft wide pickup, a NH 3-twine baler pulled by the Kubota, a NH self-propelled bale stacker. He has a full time job so haying is something for evenings and weekends. So he's gathered an assortment of used, large size equipment since he needs to get the work done quickly.
AKfish
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I've been working my way to a "fortune" in the hay business for a few year's now... It's really a "bass ackwards" way of money management and investment strategy!
Of course, one of the worst things you can do is - "count all your hay" - before it's in the barn! Makes you all goofy and likely to go out and buy a new tractor or disc mower or big baler or well... any and all of the aforementioned!
Nonetheless, if I recall from my farm days back in SD - the yield generally declines with each successive cutting. You're not likely to get the same ton/acre harvest with either the 2nd or 3rd cutting as you did with the 1st. However, the quality is generally higher and that can tend to offset the lower yield - in your revenue picture. (That's why folk's will typically want to buy 2nd cutting hay instead of 1st cut hay.)
Best of luck.
AKfish
Of course, one of the worst things you can do is - "count all your hay" - before it's in the barn! Makes you all goofy and likely to go out and buy a new tractor or disc mower or big baler or well... any and all of the aforementioned!
Nonetheless, if I recall from my farm days back in SD - the yield generally declines with each successive cutting. You're not likely to get the same ton/acre harvest with either the 2nd or 3rd cutting as you did with the 1st. However, the quality is generally higher and that can tend to offset the lower yield - in your revenue picture. (That's why folk's will typically want to buy 2nd cutting hay instead of 1st cut hay.)
Best of luck.
AKfish
DAY
Platinum Member
"Hay" is a nebulous term, and can mean many things. Timothy, orchard grass, alfalfa, and clover can all become hay, and different qualities at that.
Here in the Reading PA area a lot of hay goes to the mushroom houses, and they don't much care if it was rained on, is moldy, or otherwise unfit for livestock feed. At the end of the spectrum is prime alfalfa hay that looks and smelsl good enough for me to eat!
Hay is just pasture grass in a different form, preserved for winter use. Many farmers in areas where land prices are too high to pasture their animals will cut green chop daily and put it in a feed lot. Or put it in a silo as haylage.
As someone else said there are different markets for different types of hay- horses, dairy, beef, sheep, etc. If you are going to SELL your hay, you need to know the market(s) for your product, what the going rate is, and who is your competition.
And that does not have to be just local. In times of drought or flood hay prices can be high enough to pay for delivery three states away. In blizzard conditions it is dropped from aircraft to stranded cattle- talk about a high transportation price!
Here in the Reading PA area a lot of hay goes to the mushroom houses, and they don't much care if it was rained on, is moldy, or otherwise unfit for livestock feed. At the end of the spectrum is prime alfalfa hay that looks and smelsl good enough for me to eat!
Hay is just pasture grass in a different form, preserved for winter use. Many farmers in areas where land prices are too high to pasture their animals will cut green chop daily and put it in a feed lot. Or put it in a silo as haylage.
As someone else said there are different markets for different types of hay- horses, dairy, beef, sheep, etc. If you are going to SELL your hay, you need to know the market(s) for your product, what the going rate is, and who is your competition.
And that does not have to be just local. In times of drought or flood hay prices can be high enough to pay for delivery three states away. In blizzard conditions it is dropped from aircraft to stranded cattle- talk about a high transportation price!
riptides
Super Star Member
And don't forget about the droughts. The weather patterns in my area over the last five years have given me one good cutting a year off MY property.
My first year I had three, and thought I was set for life.
My first year I had three, and thought I was set for life.
Grateful11
Veteran Member
We looked long and hard at this system for square bales but decided round bales was the way to go for us. The bales still have find their way into the barn and labor is too hard to find. We have a gas powered elevator but you still need hired hands, round bales can be a one man operation if done right. When we looked at it at a farm show 2 years they had a satisfaction guarantee, not sure if they still have that or not.
Kuhns Mfg Hay Accumulators
Kuhns Mfg Hay Accumulators
