Concealed Carry and Consequences

[turbo36]

I have killed hundreds of people... not up close... I supported A-6E crews... etc... Loaded bombs... wrote evaluations on sailers I hardly new... that kept the A-6E aircraft crews ready... fueled, daily and turnarounded on schedule and on time. I sleep at night!

mark

I mean no disrespect but this isn't the same as directly looking at the person you just killed. My brother quit school to join the Marines back in 67' and did two tours in Vietnam . I remember very well the conversation my brother had with me when he came back late in 69' about his first up close killing. I was glad when I turned 18 my draft number was over 250, I figure my brother did enough killing for the two of us.

 

[hudlow]

In light of recent events I've decided to rachet up my awareness and I'll probably start carrying a larger caliber weapon. The odds are very good there will be some sort of "copycat" situation somewhere, sometime soon. There are creatures out there that will want the same type of noteriety that the creature who killed the innnocent people at VT is getting.

I've had my CCW permit since the state started offering them and I've been to several "advanced" training classes including night shooting and home defense.

But the recent events are really troubling. I have considered this in the past and now I'm thinking about it even more.

I'm thinking about carrying a concealed weapon to church.

How do you all feel about that?

hud

 

[Slacker]

I carry daily, and have since I legally could. I also wear my seatbelt.
Both are done in the hopes of never needing them. I have no dilusions about gunfighting. I understand that my duty is to retreat. I have never needed my carry weapon; if I am smart and lucky, I never will.
Be aware that if you fire your weapon in self defense, you will be charged with Attempted murder and jailed. Your weapon will be taken and you will be marked as violent. The DA will review the case and the charges may or may not be persued. The political climate usually will weigh heavily on the outcome.
Before you display a weapon, think about other courses of action and rule them ALL out. Remember, if it can be proved that you did not practice avoidance and retreat then you will most likley go to prison.

ETA: The packing.org NC "off limits" section.

Places off-limits while carrying
Date updated: Jul 29, 2005 @ 2:18 pm



Schools, public or private,
all levels including universities. §14-269.2


Assemblies and establishments where
admission was charged. §14-269.3


Assemblies and establishments where
alcohol is both sold and consumed. §14-269.3

State Buildings: State
Capitol Building, the Executive Mansion, the Western
Residence of the Governor, or on the grounds of any of
these buildings, and any building housing any court of the
General Court of Justice. §14-269.4

State office buildings or any portion of a
building in which there are State offices. §14-415.11(c)

Law Enforcement or Correctional Facilities.
§14-415.11(c)

Financial Institutions.
§14-415.11(c)

Events Occurring in Public:
It shall be unlawful for any person participating in,
affiliated with, or present as a spectator at any
parade, funeral procession, picket line, or
demonstration upon any private health care
facility or upon any public place owned or under the control
of the State or any of its political subdivisions to
willfully or intentionally possess or have immediate access
to any dangerous weapon. §14-277.2

Areas of emergencies or
riots. §14-288.7

Where notice of carrying a
concealed handgun is prohibited by the
posting of a conspicuous notice or statement.
§14-415.11(c)

 

[hudlow]

ETA: the poster above me asks about CCW in church. I think NC CCW law specifically forbids carry in Church, Banks, bars, state and federal owned property and public events. Better check packing.org for the skinny.

"Banks, bars, state and federal owned property and public events" are definitely off limits. But unless they left it out I can't see where it mentions churches other than funeral processions.

Even if it was, and I do try to be a law-abiding citizen, sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.

hud

 

[Seanachie]

Let me tell you a story:

I too carry religiously in civilian life. Have needed to draw it exactly 3 times in 20 years. Had to use it once and had to explain to the grand jury why it was necessary to take two lives.

I met my mother for lunch because I was driving home from FT Bragg that day. She was in business attire and I was dressed comfortably, so you'd never figure us to be together. I stopped to tie my shoe and my mother kept walking. She was walking maybe 60 feet ahead of me and got jerked into an alley in a major city in Massachusetts.

I came around the corner at full speed jerking my shirt out of my shorts to clear my P-230 in my belly-band holster. Before I could get it clear, I was on the scene. Four bad guys, one Mom.

Of the four of perpetrators, three had knives and one had no visible weapon. Mom's only 5'3" but fiesty and was doing her best to get her bag back from the guy holding her while the other 3 were in "Threaten" mode. Don't know how it would have played out if I'd had my pistol clear when I got there; I probably would have serviced all 4 targets and grabbed Mom like in any raid scenario. Either way, I refuse to second guess my actions.

Foregoing the pistol as a distraction, I collapsed the side of the windpipe of the guy holding Mom, stomped the knee of guy number 2 and took his knife away as he fell. I was still moving when I left the knife in the chest of the third guy (one dead) and slammed an elbow into the face and a knee into the crotch of the guy with no weapon. I bounced off the wall and cleared my pistol.

The guy who had been holding Mom was clutching his throat while Mom was grabbing her bag back. The guy with the bent knee was writhing on the ground clutching it. The third guy was unconcious and bleeding out and the fourth guy, who was 20 feet away on the ground, finally produced a weapon, a Charter Arms Bulldog in .44. I didn't warn him, we were long past that. I triple tapped him with 2 under the sternum and one through the left eye (lucky). He jerked the trigger when he was first hit and grazed himself along the left chest.

Remembering what someone once told me, I bellowed "Sir! Don't try to hurt my Mother anymore or I'll have to shoot you too. Sir! Sir, drop the knife, Sir!"

Total time: 15-20 second since Mom got grabbed.

I grabbed my Mom and tucked her behind me next to the dumpster. At this point, the magnitude of what just happened was just dawning on her. I ordered her not to answer any questions as "the trauma of abducted and robbed and nearly being raped and killed was too much." She caught on immediately and said "lawyers first?". I nodded. (Mom's a smart cookie) I covered the two remaining individuals as "witnesses" started showing up.

I loudly asked my Mom if she "was hurt beyond being jerked into the alley and thrown against the wall." She yelled back that "They took my purse and they had knives and guns and told me they'd kill me!" Meanwhile, I'm yelling at the two remaining guys; "Sir, stay down! Sir, do not try to reach your weapon again, Sir!"

The police show up within minutes. (Pretty good response time for a time before cell phones). As they approach, My hands are in the air, I'm holding my military ID in one hand, my concealed carry permit in the other, and my pistol is down by my feet. They ask me to turn and face the wall. I reply "They tried to kill my mother. Will you please protect her?" He glances at her and replies "Yes, please turn around and put your hands on the wall." I comply and, after submitting to search, inform them that I do not wish to answer any questions until I speak to a lawyer. Mom says the same thing.

Well, it all played out that the "witnesses" reported how poor defenseless Mom had been abducted and robbed and how I kept calling the perpetrators "Sir" and not using ethnic slurs, which, I'm sure, would have changed the focus of the investigation from "Did they try to rob and possibly rape my Mother?" to "Is he a racist?" "Eye witnesses" said I had tried to stop the perpetrators and only shot them unwillingly because they were threatening my Mother. The police report states that my goal was to protect someone in danger and that I was polite and cooperative.

All three idiots with knives had violent records. The guy with the gun, oddly enogh, had no record at all. (Weird.) Even after the grand jury threw out the BS case against me, we still had to face civil lawsuits and those were expensive but we won both of them. Mom countersued and won judgements against both of them, for which she will never see a dime.

The point of this is: There I was, a 6-foot, 26 years old Airborne Ranger with two black belts. I was trying to protect my Mom and had dropped her 4 armed assailants with my bare hands in close combat. Yeah, I'm a hero. Big friggin' deal! But, none of that mattered because, during the bad and the nasty, one of her assailants ended up 20 feet away and was drawing a gun. Because I had my pistol, I never had to find out if I could have reached him in time to stop him from killing my Mother or me. Three Glaser SafetySlugs reached him first.

Yep, I carry religiously...and I thank God every time I see my Mom that I was carrying that day.

 

[MossRoad]

...I have also had a gun held on me and several others, by a robber (near "The Flats" in Cleveland, 1979 I think) and that too brings on some strange thoughts and feelings, though I did not get sick as I did when I was the one holding the gun. I could read "Colt MK" on the side of the barrel, and distinctly remember thinking "the hammer is down, he can't shoot me without cocking", and feeling some relief with that thought. Funny what goes through your mind at such times. He got what he wanted and fled. If I'd been carrying I could have dropped him as he turned and fled. Would I have? Probably not.

When I was 16 I took a few younger kids from our neighborhood to an ice cream place on a hot summer night. One of the kids' moms let me borrow thier very nice car and gave me money to buy the ice cream. We pulled in, got out, ordered our ice cream and returned to the car. When I walked around the rear of the car to get in, there was a very large man standing between the cars blocking the driver's side door. He said I bumped his car with my door (I had not, because I was being extra careful with my friend's mom's very nice car). I apologized and offered to pay for any damages, to which he replied that he could kill me right now and pointed into the open window of the car to my left. There was a man in the front passenger seat pointing a shotgun at me. I immediately started backing up so that the guy would have to shoot over his right shoulder to get me. And the first guy came towards me, so that got him between me and the shotgun. At that point I was worried that he'd shoot my friends that had gotten in the passenger side and were oblivious to what was going on. I kept apologizing and offering to pay and getting the insurance information, etc... and slowly stepping backwards to get further out of range of that shotgun. Then, he just told me to shut up, walked around the car, got in and they left. It was over as quick as that. I got the license number and make of car. I got in the car, my friends asked me what that was about, I told them and started eating my ice cream. I finally snapped out of it, and we called the cops. They made a report. Nothing ever came of it.

But it is interesting how you can either panic, or start taking mental notes of the situation and determine your best way out of it. That was 30 years ago and I can still see that guy, his partner, the shotgun, the car we drove, their car, all the cars in the lot, my friends that I was responsible for, that car leaving the lot. Heck, I can still see the ice cream cone in my hand. I don't recall being ill, or even shaking that much after it was over. But I was dazed for a few minutes, that's for sure. The next fall I got a job at that same Dairy Queen. I met my future wife there.

Ten years later, after we had been married a few years, and I had been carrying a gun when we went out, we decided to go to pick up a pizza. I had the gun in the pocket of my windbreaker, as I was wearing shorts and a tank top and had no place for the holster. We were getting out of the car at a Little Ceasars and I stopped my wife and told her I better leave the gun in the car, as there had been some robberies and I didn't want them to get any wrong ideas. As we walked up to the door, some guy sitting in a car inthe fire lane looked directly at us, gave us a dirty look, and chucked a lit cigarrette right at us. I looked at my wife, we just walked around it, went inside and picked up the order. He left and we went back to the car. On the way home we discussed how easily that could have gone bad, had I had the gun in my pocket and been a hot head, much like that guy at the Dairy Queen ten years earlier. I have to wonder how many shootings occur because of a small provocation like that rapidly escalating due to someone having 38 caliber courage.

 

[Soundguy]

What most people, I feel, don't think about when they get a carry permit.. is that.. once you have it.. and are carrying.. you have to make some choices. Those choices may or may not always keep you out of danger.. in some case. that may elevate your level of danger ( IE when coming to someone else's aid.. ). You have to be ready to make the choice and get off the 'fence' when the time comes. Also.. there will be times when it is still better to do nothing.. even if you are armed.

Soundguy

Without practice (both at the range and just rehearsing scenarios, even in your mind) one is probably unlikely to respond well and carrying may just be a useless exercise.

 

[KubotaSteve]

I used to carry my .380 in my car especially when I had to take deposits to the bank when I worked at a fast food place (not to protect the money but to protect me ). One day I pulled up made the drop, got into my car, put my seatbelt on and got ready to back up to pull out as I was parallel parked on the street. Before I could back up the guy in front of me backs into my car and takes off. I take off after him and he pulls into a side alley and stops. He gets out and his 16 year kid jumps out and starts cussing and swearing at me. I'm talking to the father about hitting my car and just leaving. The windows were down in the car and the kid is cussing and carrying on through the passenger window and I start to put the window up and he starts jerking on it. I knew I had the .380 in the center console fulled loaded with one in the chamber with Hydroshocks, but also realized that while a potentially dangerous situation I was not at that point. The father said there was no damage to the front of my car besides a scuff mark and he apologized. I replied that's all I was looking for and told him he should get a handle on his kid before he meets up with the wrong type of person.
If the father would have been irate, I would have just pulled off instead of any further confrontation.
While I realize this situation wasn't that dangerous, my point is that I had a weapon but thought better than to pull it out.
I've also had a 12 guage pump pointed at me while out target practicing on a friend's land. A guy walked up to us leveled the gun and asked if we had permission to be on the land. I produced a signed letter from the friend (an old farmer), then the guy lowered the gun and apologized stating a lot of people were on the land hunting without permission and shot one of his cows. That definitely got the blood pumping, but I kept my little .22 rifle pointed at the ground.
My main use for my pistols are target practice (which I definitely need) but if the remote case that someone would try to break into my house, it's nice to know its there.

 

[Soundguy]

Hmm.. I don't think the person pointing hte shotgun at you was practicing due dilligence... He was artificially elevating a situation that didn't need any stiring. Just walking up with the gun 'at ready' should have been sufficient for 'asking questions'... just MHO..

Soundguy

 

[dmccarty]

Be aware that if you fire your weapon in self defense, you will be charged with Attempted murder and jailed. Your weapon will be taken and you will be marked as violent.

This is simply not true. Your weapon is likely to get taken for evidence but charged and jailed? Maybe. Maybe not. Depends on the circumstances, the officer(s), the magistrate and the DA. At least in NC.

There was a case just south of you in a few months back where an old man shot and I'm pretty sure killed a man who tried to rob him. I thought the old guy would be charged since it was pretty clear to me that he used deadly force in violation of the law. But the SO and the DA did not charge. My guess was that they knew that a jury of the man's peers would not likely convict him.

Which was the right decision as far as I'm concerned but I think the guy violated the law.

From the shootings that I have seen taking place in NC, very few defensive uses of firearms are leading to arrests.

Having said that, I think its a real good mental innoculation for anyone who has a weapon for defense to assume that if they use said weapon they will be dragged through the criminal and civil courts.

Regarding CCW in churches in NC, it used to be illegal. I can't remember if that is on the books or not anymore. There where some murders in churches a few years ago and there was talk in the Legislature to allow carry in church but I just don't remember if anything changed. I would check the NC state statute website for accurate information not another website that might wrong. It will be a chapter 14 statute.

Later,
Dan