CT122 electrical gremlin

[jonnyc1999]

Hey guys, I'm hoping you can help me before I have to pay someone to come out and look at my tractor. The other day, I started my CT122 up and piddled around with it for roughly 30 minutes. I shut it down to do something, and 10 minutes later came back to the tractor to start it. Nothing happenned! Well, to be more precise, nothing that I WANTED to happen. The dashboard lights were barely visible but flickered and made a crackling sound, and turning the key didn't engage the starter at all. I assumed it was a faulty ignition switch so replaced it, which didn't help anything. I tested the battery at 12.1 volts.

I'm not well versed in anything electrical, so any help you guys could give would be GREATLY appreciated! I would hate to call a technician out for something stupid. My dad thinks it sounds like some sort of relay issue, but I don't know what a relay looks like or how to test one! Thanks in advance for your help.:thumbsup:

 

[MossflowerWoods]

Check for loose/corrodded terminal on batttery.

 

[jonnyc1999]

I looked at the battery terminals, and the ground on the negative side looked a little rusty.... however, I ran a jumper cable from the ground to the engine block and didn't fix anything. It was pouring rain, then snow, when I was last looking at it, so I'm going to clean the ground tonight and retry.

 

[SSdoxie]

Check both ends of both battery cable connections, especially the ground to frame connection.

 

[k0ua]

The majority of these type of problems are due to defective (corroded on the inside) positive and negative cables. They look fine on the outside but are full of the greenish white powder of corrosion on the inside of the cable and hence are a high resistance connection. Another common failure mode is a defective battery with a high resistance connection inside. It may show 12 volts but when you try to pull much current from it, it exhibits a severe voltage drop. You can measure that by having 2 persons to do this check. One person operates the tractor and tries to start it, and the other person measures the voltage directly on top of the battery posts, NOT on the connector clamps, but directly on top of the battery posts. If the voltage drops much below 12 when the instrumentation and lights come on or below 10.5 when fully cranking, then you have a battery problem. If the voltage stays up, but the tractor does not crank, and the instrumentation/lights are erratic, then the problem is further down the line. Simply move the voltmeter leads further down the line to find the voltage drop.

James K0UA

 

[MossflowerWoods]

Jon,

K0ua and SSDoxie are spot on. I was gonna say check other end of ground cable, but I know James is spot on about corroded cables also.

Hope BobKitty runs tonight!

I'm firing mine up later today for bonfire prep...
1st time in Months...

David

 

[jonnyc1999]

Ok thanks guys, I'm at work right now, but this afternoon I'll definitely check it out!

I'm not looking forward to paying a technician to drive an hour each way to diagnose this problem, so I'm gonna do as much footwork as I can beforehand!

 

[SSdoxie]

12.1v is low voltage for battery with no load on it. 12.5 = about 80% fully chraged battery. When you turn the key for the first 15 - 20 seconds the glow pulgs are energized, which pulls significant amps so a with low battery or internal failure in battery it may not have enough reserve capacity to power up the dash.
Do all the checks above, especially the vlotage drop test with key on that James described. Recharge the battery and retest the voltage drop under load again. If it drops down in that 10.5v range again have your battery load tested.

 

[jonnyc1999]

I was thinking 12.1 was a little low too, but what threw me off was that I had been using the tractor for ~30 mins prior to shutting it off for a few minutes. I guess when I get it started I need to figure out if the alternator is actually charging!

 

[jonnyc1999]

well, I ruled out the battery tonight. After charging it for a bit, it read 12.5 volts. I couldn't sit on the tractor and get multimeter readings at the same time but by turning the key to run, the battery still showed over 12 volts. With the key on run, the dash flickers and hisses, but won't do anything productive. The starter will not engage.
I ran the battery down to autozone and the battery tested slightly discharged but good, at ~450cca. When I got home I sprayed the positive terminal down with battery terminal cleaner to get rid of the small amount of corrosion and called it a night. I still need to test the voltage from the other side of the positive terminal to determine if the positive cable is the issue.
At this point, I'm still considering that the issue is a relay. I'm guessing these are all under the dash? Is there a way to test if a relay has gone bad? Thanks again guys for your help, I'm enjoying learning about electrical stuff even though this is pissing me off!

 

[SSdoxie]

Coroded or loose battery cable or connections can prevent the battery from taking a charge, but it is not unusual for a battery to "give up the ship" and fail suddenly like that either.

 

[jrpat]

Is your hydrostat pedal in the "neutral" position? If it is depressed or stuck down in either direction it will not let the starter engage. Been there done that!

 

[jonnyc1999]

Hahahaha yeah I definitely checked that, as well as the PTO levers! Its hard to describe what is happening, but it's sort of like when you run a jumper wire over the battery, and it flickers and sparks. The dash flickers and hums like I'm rapidly flipping a light switch on and off while manually holding the wires together.

Yesterday I couldn't work on it, but I cleaned the terminals with corrosion dissolving spray and a wire brush and I'll put the battery in and test the connections again today.

 

[MossflowerWoods]

Jon,

It sounds like it may be something like a loose connection or ??? behind the dashboard to me...

I'm out of town all week or I'd offer to come over and help...

David

 

[MossflowerWoods]

PS - In my experience, a relay fails either open or closed, NEVER intermittent. Always on or off.

David

 

[jonnyc1999]

Ok, thanks for the heads up David! FWIW, I don't actually know what a relay on one of these tractors actually looks like, as my only experience with relays is adding one to my headlight circuit on my Willys Jeep. Every plug that I've been able to access appears to be solidly connected but I'll have to go through it tomorrow and double check everything. Like I said before, the ignition switch is new and didn't change the symptoms considerably. Apparently the Kioti ignition switches differ from the Bobcat ones at the pigtail, with a small section of wire that transitions them to the same connection end. I haven't been able to find this section yet since it's covered in wire loom. Did I mention I hate electrical issues???

 

[wallace]

Did you take the negative battery cable completely off the battery and the frame?
If not do so, make sure you clean both sides of the cable and the frame with a wire brush.
That has been the only issue I have ever seen in the Bobcat-The Kioti was a key switch.I never had to replace one on a Bobcat yet!
One other thing I have seen happen to the Bobcats...The seat switch came unpluged. You may want to check that also.

 

[k0ua]

Unfortunately I do not have the shop manual for you machine, Or I could be more specific, but in general the relays on your tractor are probably similar to mine, in that they are small square devices on the firewall of the tractor, they usually consist of a coil connection so that when current is passed thru the coil a magnetic field is generated that causes the armature, the moving part of the relay to move and make a set of high current connections. Think of the relay as high current switch that instead of being actuated by your hand is actuated by the flow of electrical current. The start relay would be one example of this and the glow plug relay another. But instead of focusing of relays, lets focus on the basics of what we know and don't know. From what you have told us, it would seem that the battery is adequate to operate the tractor, yet the starter does not spin, and as a side note the dashboard light do not seem to operate properly, and we hear some buzzing noises like a relay perhaps lacks sufficient current to pull the armature in and keep it energized. Since we seem to have eliminated the battery as a source of these voltage drops, the problem still sounds to me like high resistance in the primary cables or their connections. I am not sure how your tractor operates but in my tractor, when you turn the key on it goes thru a glow plug cycle, controlled by the glow plug timer circuitry and a large glow plug relay. This draws a large amount of current out of the battery to heat the glow plugs during the cycle, as long as the coolant temp is lower than 86 degrees. If for any reason there is a high resistance in this path the voltage to the rest of the tractor would drop tremendously due to the large amount of current potentially drawn by the glow plugs. Can you measure the voltage on the glow plug rail?, Can you measure the voltage on the lights? Do they even turn on, and if so are they dim? Do the flashers work? and are they dim? They should work with the key off.. Again, I don't have your schematic and I am sure it would be somewhat different than mine, but perhaps you could perform some of these tests and get back to us. I am still betting on high resistance wires or connections though..

James K0UA

 

[jonnyc1999]

Wallace, I took the negative cable off on both ends, and the frame side looked like bare metal. The negative battery side was secure, but I'm not confident that it was AS secure as it should have been (it seemed to shift slightly as I cranked the bolt loose). I haven't had a chance to put the battery back in yet and try again (I took the battery out to get load tested and charge it). I'll do that this afternoon after work.

k0ua, Your description of relays is consistant with my limited experience of them, a.k.a little square boxes. When you switch the key to run, the glow plugs usually fire for 10 seconds, and then the light goes off and the tractor can be started. Can you give me a better handle on how I would check the voltage to the glow plug rail? I'm guessing red lead to the glow plug wire, black lead to a ground point? Honestly, my multimeter skills end at putting positive and negative leads to the battery terminals. I'll also check the lights when I get home and report back tonight. I'm praying it's just a primary cable problem, but I'm surprised that enough corrosion to affect operation would occur before I even hit the 100 hr/one year mark!

 

[k0ua]

Yes, red lead to the glow plug rail, black lead to a good solid clean ground. As for a cable failure, well there are always sulfuric acid fumes coming out of the battery, and they can attack metals pretty quick.. That is why I always use No-Ox-Id by Sanchem. on all my battery connections and clamps and the junction of the vinyl insulation on the cables as soon as I get a new vehicle. I have been doing this for about 25 or more years and have never had a corroded cable or connection. Before That I had my share of corrosion problems. I don't sell the stuff, and have no stock in the company, but I am a firm believer in its use.

Sanchem NOOXID electrical grease & electrically conductive grease dielectric grease and contact lubricants

James K0UA