Dead tractor - help!

[JoeL4330]

I have a 4330, nearly identical to the 5030 and had similar problems. Once all the lines are dry it is a bear...lesson to be learned, as soon as it stumbles, turn it off and go into trouble shooting mode:

Check the fuel filter bowl to make sure it is full (full) of fuel. Chances are, it isn't ...then, remove input line to the fuel filter (from the tank) ...it is gravity feed, and fuel should flow. If it doesn't, as you did, blow up the line to dislodge the crud and (watch out) it will flow and you can stick the line back on, fill the bowl, and (chances are you can) get going temporarily.

As soon as convenient, get your 5 gallon cans and a funnel with a filter. Remove that input line to the filter and (if you placed the can correctly) it will flow into the pan ...eventually, the culprit crud should flow out and be caught in the filter of the funnel so you can inspect it and determine the cause. You may need more than one can, depending on how full your tank was.

All the above if the blockage was before the filter bowl. If the bowl was full and fuel flowed easily into it, then suspect (and change) the filter.

The key is, as soon as it stumbles, shut it off and go into trouble mode, to avoid having to refill the injector lines, which is a pain and, really a two person job and, sometimes, more than one battery charge.

If you still need a diagram, let me know and I can scan it in from my shop manual.

 

[texasjohn]

You are certainly learning more that you wanted to know about how the tractor fuel system works... lots of good advice here, I can only point out one thing that has not been lately mentioned.

Once the tractor starts running, be sure and shut the round air bleed valve.... this COULD have been the reason your tractor stopped running after 2 minutes..... the valve should be opened to assist in removing air... then closed after vehicle is running....

I went thru all this myself, but it was 90 degrees... and I was at the house (I've already given you the thread of my saga). I doubt you fried the starter... it is so cold where you are I kinda doubt it got too hot.

More likely, low battery causing the click and no turnover.

 

[john_bud]

Well, you got it running. You did close the air bleed, right?

Starters don't usually fry, unless you were cranking it unmercifully without cool down time? If you are wondering if you are committing starter abuse, put your hand on it. Warm is ok, hot is not.

When you blew into the line, you probably blew a wad of gell back into the tank. It should go back into solution with the howes. You did 4 "cap fulls"? The howes I have, has a dinky little cap - or was that cup fulls and I mis read it? I would have put 16 oz into a 10-12 gal volume of fuel if gelled up.

A "click" is usually a weak battery or a loose connection. Often the ground side.

To answer a prior question, the fuel bowl will look 100% full normally. If it does not look full, you have a supply issue.

jb

 

[5030tinkerer]

Might have been a heat thing - the starter worked like a champ next time (and the next, and the next). So...great!

Next question - any ideas on how to flush the fuel tank of the gunk that's just got to be in there? I'd hate to have to remove the tank from the tractor, since that might mean having to remove the hood. I couldn't readily see a method for removing any filter screen on the inside of the tank.

The current plan is to siphon the tank in lieu of removing the supply line to hopefully stir up any gunk in the tank in the process and get it out of there, remove the supply line from the filter housing to drain the tank the rest of the way, and then figure out how to clean whatever on the screen that just must be in there.

Ideas appreciated!

 

[George2615]

You probably don't need to flush the tank, just add some power service additive to your fuel to prevent jelling. If possible, get it in your garage to warm up the fuel system enough so it goes back to a liquid state. The fuel lines are small diameter and if its really cold the fuel starts to gel inside the line which will restrict flow. Since your tractor is left outside the fuels starting to gel. The occasional click of the starter then next time its OK indicates a bad connection probably at the battery terminals or at the starter end. I clean mine every year and apply some grease to them to repel any moisture that gets on them.

 

[5030tinkerer]

I didn't think that I necessarily needed to flush the tank either, though noted that my temporary solution of clearing the restriction in the supply line was just that - temporary. About 20 minutes into using the tractor after clearing that restriction yesterday, it died again. Again, the supply line was clogged. This, after Howes had been added to the tank at the onset of the trouble.

What do you think? It's 6 degrees out and there's 4-8" of white stuff coming tomorrow.

I suppose the base question is whether diesel, once gelled, remains so regardless of what additives are added until a warm enough temperature can be sustained for 2-3 hours to ungel it. Any ideas there?

 

[Thumper & Buttercup]

If you are still having gell problems I would
put a bottle or part of a bottle of Power Service
911. That will take care of any gelling.

I add a regular double dose of Power Service
to all my Diesel tractors and Pickups. When
I drove semi also. I always start treating my
Diesel vehicles in September, I double dose
them and then run that tank out, then change
the fuel filters and then run my fuel with at least
double the amount of Power Service.

The only time I ever had problems was last year
in my Pickup, it was -33 degrees and we were
running that Artic fuel that was supposed to be
good to -37. We'll we ended up adding 911
to get to the Auction that day. It was so cold that
the propane heaters at the Auction had froze.
Hope this helps.

Thumper

 

[texasjohn]

Well, I think you have identified the problem.... need to get your tractor to a warmer area... how about shipping it to me

I looked on the net and found this site.... questions 6 and 7 seem to directly apply to your situation...
http://www.bellperformance.net/pdf/CommonQuestionsAboutFuel.pdf

I'm not pushing their products...

They say that once gelled, adding typical antigel does not help. They say that their QUICK THAW works in 20 minutes.

Alternatively, putting vehicle in a warm place for several hours is supposed to reverse the process.

Me, I only know what I read... it's only 26 degrees outside now... never had diesel gel on me so far...hope I never get so cold that I do.

 

[5030tinkerer]

I did indeed turn the air bleed back off after things got running more smoothly. I think what I am going to do for tonight is drain the tank into a 5 gallon fuel jug and replace it with fresh fuel.

Dies anyone know if there is an internal screen inside the tank?

 

[5030tinkerer]

I did indeed turn the air bleed back off after things got running more smoothly. I think what I am going to do for tonight is drain the tank into a 5 gallon fuel jug and replace it with fresh fuel.

Does anyone know if there is an internal screen inside the tank?

 

[JoeL4330]

I do not believe you have a screen in the bottom of the tank ...it would make no sense since it is nearly impossible to get to such a screen in your tank ...the outlet is offset from the fill opening. As the shop manual for your 5030 (and my 4330) shows, no screen ...see attached jpg, which you might find generally useful.

If you read my earlier post, it described the easy way to empty the tank, filter the fuel ...put the fuel back in ...if you want to flush, repeat the process a few times.

Let me know if this helps.

 

[john_bud]

You did hit on one of the better ideas. (Your wife will not think so....)

Clamp the output line from the tank with a pliers and then route the fuel with a larger line into 5 gal fuel cans. (Get the ones back from Mr Borrowsalot). Bring the fuel into the house and warm it up to 70-75 degrees. Then while the wife is out shopping, put them into a tub of HOT water for a half hour. That will put the gunk into solution and add heat to dissolve any gunk still in the tank. Then pour back in to the tractor and motor on.


The issue you are having is that once the fuel crystallizes (that's actually what gelling is), it is hard to get it to dissolve. The anti-gel solutions are meant to keep the crystallization from occurring in the first place.

 

[JoeL4330]

I don't believe crystallization can be the culprit prior to the filter--would have to be the godzilla of crystalls to block the fuel outlet and hose, although it can crystallize in the filter pores--and, in this tractor series the fuel tank sits nicely above (and behind) the engine, in the engine compartment, so running the engine for a while heats the tank ...as I recall the post, it has been running, since the episode.

Serious gelling/crystallization is more likely when there is water in the fuel, but note that the fuel filter bowl is at the lowest point and water droplets should be visible there if there is serious undissolved water in the fuel.

Back to the original post, gelling is more likely when the filter bowl is full and the tractor gets fuel starved. If the filter bowl is empty and the tractor is starved for fuel the blockage is between the tank outlet and the filter bowl ...as was evidenced by the fact that when he removed the line from the tank at the bowl and blew into it, he dislodged a blockage and fuel poured down his sleeve (or, my sleeve, in my case).

You are right, though, about the difficulty of remelting the parafin once it has formed. Power Service makes a special product for this: Diesel 911, orange bottle, as do other brands.

The more important lesson, though, is the one from my first post: if the engine starts to stumble because of fuel starvation, shut down immediately so as not to exhaust completely the fuel in the injector lines. Check the fuel bowl (likely less than full) and then go into mouth-to-mouth resuscitation. ...wipe the fuel from your arm, or wherever, re-attach, restart and get somewhere more convenient.

Deft placement of the fuel can under the fuel bowl means that it is pretty easy to drain the tank by breaking the input line at the bowl and directing the flow, with the help of gravity, into your container. If the piece of crud is the right size, it will flow through the hose into the filter of the funnel you have providently placed on the fuel can. This might require one or more mouth-to-mouths.

If you study the diagram, it is unlikely that the blockage is in the tank, most likely somewhere in the hose, and with a few attempts, will flow through the hose into the filter-funnel for your inspection. If, however, it is just the right size and shape to block the tank outlet, and heavier (denser) than fuel, so it repeatedly settles there, that's a big problem. Removing the tank is a major pain. Not only the hood needs to be removed, as the poster suggested, but also the "dashboard" including the intelli-panel, etc.

 

[5030tinkerer]

Looks like I am back up and running. After it died the second time, I tried the mouth-to-mouth bit on the supply line again to get to a more convenient spot, but ran the battery down getting it to re-start. My neighbor was (once-again) kind enough to tow me back up to a more convenient spot. Interesting sidebar here: you cannot steer a Kubota Grand L5030 when being pulled backwards with the engine off - I had to periodically crank the engine to get the wheels to turn. At the very last of this tow, the tractor started and stayed running long enough for me to park it exactly where I wanted.

Not wanting to have a problem when the snow was falling, I drained the tank last night. Once empty, I poured FRESH fuel into the tank to help get out any remaining crud. I did not have a funnel with a screen available to me at the time, though noted NO globules of crud. I'll re-post here when I screen it, but it may be that I didn't have to go through the drain/re-fill process at all.

I did also go ahead and clean up the connections at the battery terminals and the battery chassis ground.

I left the air vent open all night and this morning it started, ran rough, died for two cycles and then just ran perfectly.

THANKS TO ALL FOR THE INCREDIBLE INFORMATION. LESSON LEARNED - NEVER run out of fuel, NEVER run untreated fuel in the winter, regardless of the supposed mix out of the pump. It just isn't worth it.

 

[Soundguy]

I'm not familiar with that unit, so must ask.

Does the fuel tank have a tap/valve threaded into the tank.. or is it a molded tank with a nipple simply connected to a hose.

If a tap / valve, they can have a fuel screen atop the valve.. NH units are like this.

soundguy

Looks like I am back up and running. After it died the second time, I tried the mouth-to-mouth bit on the supply line again to get to a more convenient spot, but ran the battery down getting it to re-start. My neighbor was (once-again) kind enough to tow me back up to a more convenient spot. Interesting sidebar here: you cannot steer a Kubota Grand L5030 when being pulled backwards with the engine off - I had to periodically crank the engine to get the wheels to turn. At the very last of this tow, the tractor started and stayed running long enough for me to park it exactly where I wanted.

Not wanting to have a problem when the snow was falling, I drained the tank last night. Once empty, I poured FRESH fuel into the tank to help get out any remaining crud. I did not have a funnel with a screen available to me at the time, though noted NO globules of crud. I'll re-post here when I screen it, but it may be that I didn't have to go through the drain/re-fill process at all.

I did also go ahead and clean up the connections at the battery terminals and the battery chassis ground.

I left the air vent open all night and this morning it started, ran rough, died for two cycles and then just ran perfectly.

THANKS TO ALL FOR THE INCREDIBLE INFORMATION. LESSON LEARNED - NEVER run out of fuel, NEVER run untreated fuel in the winter, regardless of the supposed mix out of the pump. It just isn't worth it.

 

[texasjohn]

5030tinkerer, congrats on getting back on the road...er.back in the saddle...er...reseated...we all learn the fuel lesson one time and never mess up again... for me thankfully it was hot weather... hope you still have all fingers, toes, nose, ears, other appendages after being out in all that zero degree weather.

Now, get back in that seat, crank up the RPMs, and turn up the heater, and go out there again before the tractor forgets how to work!

 

[john_bud]

2 points.

1 the steering is what is known as hydrostatic. The column has 2 jobs. The obvious one is to act like a valve and direct the pressurized fluid. But it is also a pump. When the engine is off, you can get the wheels to turn by turning the steering wheel. You have to turn it more than you normally do, but it does work.


Second point is that you are right on about not running the tank dry!!

jb

 

[5030tinkerer]

You know, it's interesting. Turning the wheel on the tractor (a lot!) when being pulled forward turned the wheels. Turning the wheels when being backward seemed to do nothing. I can't explain it, but it's what I experienced. Maybe I didn't turn far enough?

As far as the tank is concerned, it appears to be one big, molded unit with in an integrated nipple for the fuel supply and return lines.

Thanks again everyone for the help! It's good to be going again!

 

[JoeL4330]

I'm not familiar with that unit, so must ask.

Does the fuel tank have a tap/valve threaded into the tank.. or is it a molded tank with a nipple simply connected to a hose.

If a tap / valve, they can have a fuel screen atop the valve.. NH units are like this.

soundguy

I thought I had already posted a diagram, above, from the shop manual for his machine that shows no filter ...here are the two relevant pics from the parts manual ...I don't see a filter, and from experience with my 4330, I had a piece of crud come down the hose that would have been stopped by a screen if there were one.

 

[5030tinkerer]

This lack of screen has made me consider whether to augment the stock filtration system with an inline shutoff followed by an inline filter immediately following the tank. I suppose I am concerned about the longevity of such a filter considering that the drastically larger pleated stock filter is good for 400 hours by the book at least.