DEF going away ?

[Hay Dude]

Just saw road diesel for $2.99 - 15 miles from here. Typical prices around here are $3.10-3.15.

That’s another reason why Texas just kicks the crap outta most other states. Mine included.

 

[Hay Dude]

I don't recall how I worded it but what I meant to imply, and is still just clearly true, is that the emissions systems technology is robust and reliable. From a functional engineering perspective, it is incredibly easy and straightforward to catch particulates in a DPF that periodically initiates a regeneration based upon differential pressure sensors. From the same perspective, it is incredibly easy and straightforward to inject DEF into an SCR to convert smog-forming oxides of nitrogen into harmless water and nitrogen. These technologies were chosen for diesel engine emissions compliance precisely because they are easy and reliable.

So what do you need to make this all work seamlessly for the end user? A competent integration to the vehicle, engine (and transmission if we want to lump that in) in terms of equipment sizing, controls, sensors, and of course quality manufacturing.

What vehicles have problems on the road? The ones where the vehicle manufacturer cut corners and chose low-cost suppliers, and/or didn't do their proper engineering on sizing and controls of the aftertreatment components. Where you find actual problems in the field tend to be on lower-margin vehicles, or low-volume vehicles that simply don't warrant the necessary investment in engineering and system validation. Why do we see so many threads about LS tractors having DPF issues here? Because LS sucks at engineering and is intentionally producing a low cost product.

What vehicles don't have hardly any issues at all? The highest volume products with the most at stake. Think your Ford 6.7, duramax, Cummins ISB. People are still buying diesel HD pickup trucks in record volumes because the emissions compliance technology works seamlessly (in general), and certainly well enough not to deter buyers. It simply just works fine, and keeps our air much cleaner.

So if your truck is having issues on the road, its basically because your manufacturer just sucked at integration, controls, or cut costs. My 2c: blame them, not the regulations. Because for most of us, it all works just fine and is well worth having in place. Thus, the regulations will remain. Do your homework and research, buy what works.

OMG, I’ve read novels shorter….

Hey man, we know what you said, you don’t have to kill yourself trying to unwind and re-explain everything.
I say DEF & DPF and cooled EGR systems suck, I don’t care what your graphs, charts & manuals say.
I really don’t care if your a petroleum engineer, nuclear physicist or Rudolph Diesel himself, ain’t no getting around it.
And prolly 80% of truckers & farmers would agree with me.

You know what an “80/20” issue is? Let me give you some help….you’re on the “20” side.

 

[ptsg]

OMG, I’ve read novels shorter….

Hey man, we know what you said, you don’t have to kill yourself trying to unwind and re-explain everything.
I say DEF & DPF and cooled EGR systems suck, I don’t care what your graphs, charts & manuals say.
I really don’t care if your a petroleum engineer, nuclear physicist or Rudolph Diesel himself, ain’t no getting around it.
And prolly 80% of truckers & farmers would agree with me.

You know what an “80/20” issue is? Let me give you some help….you’re on the “20” side.

If Rudolph Diesel came back out of the grave and saw what the amount of crap they added to the simple diesel engine he invented, he would just run straight back to the grave.

 

[Lineman North Florida]

OMG, I’ve read novels shorter….

Hey man, we know what you said, you don’t have to kill yourself trying to unwind and re-explain everything.
I say DEF & DPF and cooled EGR systems suck, I don’t care what your graphs, charts & manuals say.
I really don’t care if your a petroleum engineer, nuclear physicist or Rudolph Diesel himself, ain’t no getting around it.
And prolly 80% of truckers & farmers would agree with me.

You know what an “80/20” issue is? Let me give you some help….you’re on the “20” side.

In my career working off of the farm for 35 years I met a lot of people but whenever someone strolled in and said they were an engineer and this is how we needed to do it, I would hear them out and when they were finished I would boom up and go back to work, there was a saying from the old lineman that I started under and it was " Do you know how I know that you are an engineer?" To which they would reply no how? It's because nothing you draw up seems to work. Don't get me wrong I worked with a few that came out on the crew to understand why certain things didn't work and would ask for you to meet them on new jobs for advice on future work and they were good people but most of them fell under the old rule.

 

[Shawn T. W.]

I searched for 5 months to find my non-computer, non emissions 2005 tractor ... I'm not gonna spend my money on that emissions stuff ... in a diesel engine, gasoline seems to be a bit better adapted to it, is it because they have had more time to refine/choke it? Or is gasoline easier to clean, and keep cleaner?

 

[Gregster613]

My 2021 GC 1725 MB rear 540 PTO needs 2900 RPM, redlines at 3100 RPM.

My 2005 Kubota Grand L 5030 rear 540 PTO needs 2700 RPM, redlines at 2700 RPM ... Keep them hot!

rScotty and Shaw, I was going to say that I run my 273 at pto speeds whenever I'm using it and those are about 2500 or better - which is just before redline.

 

[LouNY]

Heck I use my 540 economy mode to have pto speed when needed at less the 1700 rpm and I'm often running at 1200 to 1500 rpm with full pto speed being 2500 rpm.

 

[2manyrocks]

Didn't have my watch with me today, but spent several minutes waiting for regen to complete before I could finish mowing today. The problem is I don't need to operate at high rpm to mow this late in the season, but if I don't operate at a high rpm, the regen cycle kicks in. This is the stupidest system.

 

[Shawn T. W.]

My company couldn't see any problems with my system remotely ... They said maybe it needed a "hard reset" or maybe was "just a glitch"! But had me stop at a Love's Truck Stop ... I spent 7 hours in the shop! Almost $1200 invoice ... Lights Still on!

My company asked me to disconnect the battery ... Check engine light (CEL) is now still on! Gonna just drive it until it stops ... Then they can tow it!

While in the shop another guy comes in with a brand new Peterbilt that Clean Harbors just bought, it had a PACCAR engine in it, he had just picked it up at the dealership in Houston and had a total of 184 miles on it ... He got the dash warning of "derate soon" and started with the count down clock, when he pulled into the truck stop he had 115 minutes until full derate, which is "limp mode 5 MPH"! He was headed to Corpus Christi ...

They tried to do a forced regen, but PACCAR had it locked out, so they couldn't do anything with it ... And wished him "Good Luck"!

 

[rScotty]

I searched for 5 months to find my non-computer, non emissions 2005 tractor ... I'm not gonna spend my money on that emissions stuff ... in a diesel engine, gasoline seems to be a bit better adapted to it, is it because they have had more time to refine/choke it? Or is gasoline easier to clean, and keep cleaner?

Neither of those theories are correct...but both are close.

But you are right in that there is a difference in the fuels, gas or diesel, and that difference does play into how the emissions are controlled.

Here is how it works:

A gas engine always runs a bit rich - that is to say the incoming charge has more fuel than is needed in the fuel/air combustion mix. Because the mixture is rich, the engine combustion can be controlled simply by throttling the air....which means both horse power and efficiency can be raised simply by opening the throttle to add more air. As a bonus, adding more air makes the combustion more lean, it burns hotter, and burns more completely. That leads to a hotter exhaust with less particles, and makes it easier for a simple catalyst in the muffler to remove the remaining emissions from the exhaust flow.

Diesel fuel burn very differently. Diesel engines don't have a air throttle plate to regulate the amount of air coming into the intake. Their air flow in is always wide open. Because of that, diesels can't help but run on the lean side of fuel/air combustion mix. Unlike a gas engine that adds air to add power, a diesel already has all the air it needs. What it needs is more fuel to make a better fuel/air mixture. So diesels add more fuel when they want more power. That is the key thought: that adding fuel, not air, is how a diesel increases their horse power.
Adding fuel to the diesel's air/fuel mix does move the resulting fuel/air mix closer to being a perfect combustion mix, and that does gives it more power, lots more power. But the resulting fuel/air mixture loses efficiency, because the mixture is just too far on the rich side of the burn curve for complete combustion to happen. So the harder the diesel works, the more its exhaust contains incomplete combustion residue in the form or smelly acids and soot particles. In extreme cases, we call it "rolling coal". There is a lot more things to clean up in a diesel exhaust than in a gasoline engine exhaust.

That is why cleaning up diesel exhaust is more complicated than cleaning up the exhaust on gas engines.

Hope this helps,
rScotty