Depression

[MossRoad]

Do you move every time your physical place of employment changes. Just the closing and legal costs make that a ridiculous idea. And who on earth thinks that your job and your kids school are necessarily going to be close together?

All of my granparents moved each time they needed to look for work. My parents looked at other cities when my dad was layed off but he decided to take a job at one third of what he was making so that he could stay in the house he built by hand. We ate a lot of chicken, rice and beans to keep that house. We did without unnecessary things to make ends meet. I know what its like to live on pennies. My mom and dad grew up in the depression and instilled in me what is a WANT and what is a NEED. You only need three things... food, water and shelter. Everything else is a WANT. My wife and I have been married 23 years and in that time we've managed to pay off two houses, 20 acres, and send our kids to very good schools on average wages. We've been in the black since the day after our wedding and have been debt free for a decade, so don't call my views of closing and legal costs rediculous as I think that anyone that gets so deep into debt that they have to be worried about closing costs and legal fees was most likely foolish with their financial decisions in the first place by spending beyond their means with no safety net.

 

[riptides]

.... I think that anyone that gets so deep into debt that they have to be worried about closing costs and legal fees was most likely foolish with their financial decisions in the first place by spending beyond their means with no safety net. ....

But you have to agree there are circumstances that are beyond ones control that impact finances. Medical emergencies, family and getting higher education - come to mind. Trying to go to school and graduating with an advanced degree invariably gives one a higher than average debt load, often with no job.

 

[N80]

Mossroad,

I'm sorry but that's a pretty narrow view of 'need' (and not entirely accurate either, since most of us metabolize oxygen). But, if that's all there is to it, then you guys were living like kings. You didn't NEED a house. A cave, a tent, a hut would have done just fine. What a ridiculous luxury a house is. What a waste of time, energy and money to build a house by hand. You didn't NEED the chicken you are complaining about. Lots of people on this planet get by on rice and bugs. You didn't NEED jobs. There are plenty of other ways to obtain water, food and shelter without working at some employment. And your kids didn't NEED to go to school at all, much less "very good schools." And while you may know what its like to live on pennies there are people in this country who live on nothing and lack even the shelter and food that you talk about. To them, your needs look a lot like wants.

All of this is to say that even though you may have come up in hard times and even though you might have managed your finances well, there is always going to be someone who had it harder than you and can define NEED far more narrowly than you ever have in your life. You wouldn't like them applying their standards of WANT and NEED on your life decisions, so it really isn't fair to assume that your standards are the only one's by which we can judge a society. Just suggesting that wasting money on closing costs got your dander up, so you can see what I'm saying here.

In the end, though, I'm in agreement about bad financial decisions, unrealistic standards of living, and how soft we've gotten. But I'm still not going to suggest that everyone in this country could or should move their home to get closer to a job that may or may not be there next week just so they can save gas. That would be naive and beyond realistic. And highly unlikely to help.

For a lot of people 'home' means a lot more than just where they sleep between the hours of work.

 

[bigshovel]

N80, Mossroad,

I'm onboard with no debt and personal financial resonsibility, yes there are a few that have less than Mossroad mentioned however that is mostly by choice or a situation beyond control i.e. mentally handicapped. We are the land of opportunity and ANYONE who chooses to work hard can and will make it here in this country period. So a need to one is a want to another and it is unreasonable to suggest a cave and a bug are acceptable in the land of opportunity. Mossroads grandparents displayed exactly what made this country great and I wish all would sacrifice and display work ethic to this extent when times are tough. A house may be more than a roof to some, but unreasonable to cling to a THING like a house as an excuse to avoid a job.

Brad

 

[MossRoad]

But you have to agree there are circumstances that are beyond ones control that impact finances. Medical emergencies, family and getting higher education - come to mind. Trying to go to school and graduating with an advanced degree invariably gives one a higher than average debt load, often with no job.

Yes. I agree that there are circumstances that are out of your control like medical emergencies. Higher education isn't an emergency. I know many folks that paid as they went. I did and my mom and dad both did. When you start talking medical school, etc... however, that is beyond my financial reach. I would not take out a hundred thousand dollar plus loan for school in the hopes that I will land a job that pays enough to pay it off.

 

[N80]

I think avoiding debt is probably the best thing we can do to deal with whatever the economy throws at us. Debt on a house isn't good, but in general 'real' property holds its value even in economic hard times. I feel the same way about land. I think the worse two types of debt are cars and credit cards. I may not ever buy another new car or truck.

As far as home vs job, well, I can see that going both ways. The more I think about it, the more I feel strongly that 'home' is worth more than a job. I'm not necessarily talking about a McMansion or even wood and bricks. I'm thinking more along the lines of location, community, place. They way you would feel about a family farm in a rural setting or a family business in a more urban setting. A family run hardware store comes to mind. That's the business my grandparents were in. They were intimately connected to the community through that store, and more so through church. My grandfather died in 1968 and I still get patients in my office that tell me how fair he was and how caring he was. I think it can be hard to leave a 'place' when you are connected to it in that sort of way, just to make more money. But to state the obvious, you have to do what you have to do.

 

[riptides]

...As far as home vs job....

A big problem is that hanging on to ones home without a job is difficult.

It is that sense of home- generations, friends, family, community and other relationships that built our country. Home is the American Dream.

People fight for home, some people tried to make money off home, some people just want a home.

Unfortunate a great deal of people made bad moves trying to realize home.

Some are hanging on, a great many others are not. The want vs.
need is blurred on home.

And the banks and our institutiojs did not help us. Wait and see these next few months, this downward spiral has not hit bottom yet.

Good luck to us all.

 

[N80]

I hate to be a pessimist and I hate to take my cues from the media which is always crying wolf and playing Chicken Little, but I agree that things are going to get worse and could get much worse.

And because of all the media and doom and gloom, I almost hate to admit, that as bad as everyone says it is....I haven't felt it yet. Not in a serious way. I can tell that gasoline is taking a chunk out of our monthly budget, and it ticks me off, but it hasn't hurt yet. And before anyone starts screaming about how different my situation is from everyone else's, I know plenty of people in various other jobs and financial situations that are also doing just fine. They are feeling the pinch of gas prices in many ways of course, but I know people in small businesses (local shoe store, local hobby shop, local feed and seed), I know farmers (farmers always complain but I haven't seen much more than usual), lawyers, sales, consulting and so far none of these folks are losing their jobs, homes, cars etc. I'm sure any of us would say we like to be better off than we are now but I'm perfectly content right now.

All that's just to say that all the collective moaning doesn't speak for everyone and that if the moaners think it is bad now....just wait.

I really do think the most pain is for those who bought homes and cars at high interest rates with little down payment. Folks like that tend to max out credit cards as well. That sector of society is hurting bad right now....but it seems like most of us would say that their misery is self inflicted.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not wearing rose colored glasses, I know that plenty of people are hurting and hurting for legitimate reasons. They too are going to hurt worse when the roller coaster hits the big hill.

 

[MikePA]

This thread is full of doom and gloom and Chicken Littles, just like the mainstream media.

• There are segments of the economy that are hurting. So, what else is new?
• There are segments of the economy that are doing well. So, what else is new?

Back in the late 1800s I am sure the people who made buggy whips were whining along with the horse and carriage industries. Back then, people looked inside themselves to get through such times while today they look to government. If the government back then was like the government today, there would have been The Buggy Whip Protection Act of 1891 along with the Confiscate The Obscene Horseless Carriage Profits Act.

Everyone focuses on things like GM curtailing their pickup and SUV production while ignoring the boom in flex fuel and hybrid vehicles as well as sales of scooters and motorcycles. I expect to see reports soon about the rise in cycle and scooter deaths due to the price of fuel.

 

[N80]

I remember back in school, and even in college history, FDR is praised as one of our greatest leaders ever. There is no criticism to be heard of his policies during the depression. To do so would be blasphemy. But despite his charisma and his leadership in WWII, he is THE one that sold this country on socialism. His famous works programs were pure socialism and started the events that have led us to become a welfare state....which we are, our largest federal budget expenditures are entitlements (welfare, medicare, social security, etc etc.)

I'm not denying that he was a great man, but the state we are in now was his idea, his baby. But the American people are guilty too. They worshipped him and they traded their capitalist souls for the handouts he promised and delivered. There was resistance to many policies during the depression, but I can name no names. Who were they? And many of his policies were not wholly constitutional. He got his wants in many ways, not the least of which was manipulation of the Supreme, and higher level courts.

All of this is just to say that at times like this it is good to look at our heros in the light of their legacy and to remember as we pick new heros not to be lead like horse with a carrot every time someone promises us an 'economic stimulus check'.

As a country we compromised our principles for pragmatism in the 1930's when times got hard. I just hope the opposite happens if things get bad this time and we swing back to self sufficiency, a good work ethic and personal responsibility.