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The definitions I heard were that a recession was when you lose your job, and a depression was when I lose my job.
Depression
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The definitions I heard were that a recession was when you lose your job, and a depression was when I lose my job.
RichZ
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A depression is not going to effect everyone at the same time. It has to start someplace, and I think this one is starting with the small family farms, which in my opinion, is the backbone of our economy. Family farms are going under at a rate faster than ever before, and that rate is speeding up. From the family farms, the next to be hurt are businesses that supply them, and consumers who buy their products, and it obviously goes on from there. Most of the country depends on products from family farms to some extent, and as more and more go under, things will get worse. I'm not a doom sayer, I'm just stating a fact. I take no pleasure in stating this, and I wish it wasn't true, but ask anyone who farms for a living, and you'll hear the same thing.
In my case, I still have an off-farm job that gives me enough of an income to survive. I won't lose my farm, but I am downsizing as quickly as I can, and I went from having a very comfortable income to having to cut my expenses to the bone in order to survive. But most family farmers don't have an off-farm income, and they will lose their farms, and things are going to be very bad for them.
In my case, I still have an off-farm job that gives me enough of an income to survive. I won't lose my farm, but I am downsizing as quickly as I can, and I went from having a very comfortable income to having to cut my expenses to the bone in order to survive. But most family farmers don't have an off-farm income, and they will lose their farms, and things are going to be very bad for them.
ihookem
Gold Member
Original question- Are we going into a depression? No not at all! at least not nationally. Upstate New York on a small farm may be hurting. Small farms in S.E Wisconsin- doing fairly well. Here is why some are hurting and some failing. A small scale dairy farmer can't compete with a 1,000 cow milk farm. He has to find something that can't be mass produced. Goat milk is a start for cheese. Maybe you should try selling the milk more locally as milk? It depends on the locals whether it will work or not. There is a whole new customer that will pay a lot more for a better/ fresher food, if there is an upscale population close by it might work. It might work but New York is hurting bad. ( I have relatives in Utica, my mom grew up there) You have to sell things money can't buy in a megga grocery mart. Free range or pastured chickens that taste five times better than store bought. Farm fresh eggs, that taste fresher, turkeys, grass fed beef, maybe a pig or two, (but maybe not pigs) It sounds like you are sticking with one idea, a cheese maker 75 mi. away and may have to be more flexible. I see people all the time that can't "make it" . because they refuse to be flexible. As a self employed carpenter I see guys with very little work because they only want to finish or frame or just hang cabinets. I made it for four years because I do almost everything, am honest, polite, reasonable rates and dress so I don't offend customers in their own house. Many carpenters don't know enough to turn off satanic music when there is a cross on the homeowners front door, they don't do well. Anyway you are lucky, you have other income to get you by untill you can find out what will work and what won't. I believe a wise man can make it through anything and have prayed to God for wisdom a thousand times about such matters, I guess he gave me just enough to do well. This is more a pm than a post. Anyway, as crazy as this may sound I have decided times in general are very good. The media is very good at making things look much worse than they are especially when a republican is in the white house. If Obama gets in you will hear a much different story a few weeks after Obama livws there.I know I am going to get a lot of insults for this but I wish gas would go higher like 5-6 dollars a gallon. I know you've never heard anything like this but I've been saying it for a few years. It's The only thing that is going to get us off this dependence for foreign oil. It will bring new technology for electric cars and that's the future in all cases except tractors, semis and big trucks. Almost everyone could get by with an electric car. In reality an electric car should be cheap to make and cheaper to run (100 mi. on 3 dollars of electricity)with little maintenance. This will make fuel much cheaper for the guys like farmers, truck drivers,and guys who really need a diesel or big truck. World futures will go down and few would use oil stocks as a money bank against inflation, foreign countries will have much less leverage against us , we could drill most of the oil we use, and could easily put OPEC off their high horse. Air in the cities would be cleaner and quieter too. We need oil to stay high enough long enough for people to realize gas is never going to be cheap again, and electric cars are not only for wimps. By the way, GM can turn out an electric car in six months if they want to. We will forget about gas cars like we forgot about the horse and buggy but we have to have a reason, and that seems to only come with a national crisis cause we don't think long term like when Toyota came out with the Prius the year gas was .89 a gallon. (We were making SUV's) If gas goes back to 3 bucks we (short sighted Americans)will buy gas hogs. If it goes to 5 or 6 bucks for a long time we will get used to electric cars long enough to prefer them cause car makers will have made enough of them to make them cheaper and better. It's going to hurt but we will be better off in the long run. I also know companies can't find good young kids to work in factories so they go over seas.
N80
Super Member
LMTC said:
That's what we were taught in elementary school. I personally feel that in the last 75 years Washington is more of an oligarchy than a representative democracy. I'd love to see a poll of how many Americans feel that they have any impact on federal government policy. I'd love even more to hear how those who answered 'yes' think that they do so.
RichZ
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You are correct in the fact that a small family farm can now longer survive with one product. Goat milk is our main product, but we also raise fiber sheep, and sell the wool and lambs, we also sell free range chicken eggs. We also sell our goat kids, and as we are known to have good registered stock, they sell for good prices. As I said, we will survive. But many famrers in my area, and throughout the country are not going to survie. Our farm is very small, and we always intended to sell various products. But many larger and more established farms don't have the resources to make changes like that.
In our case, we're switching the use of our goat milk. My wife has started making goat milk soap, and we'll try other products as well. But, if I didn't have an off-farm income as well as our farm income, we'd never be able to make these changes.
Believe me, we're entering a depression.
In our case, we're switching the use of our goat milk. My wife has started making goat milk soap, and we'll try other products as well. But, if I didn't have an off-farm income as well as our farm income, we'd never be able to make these changes.
Believe me, we're entering a depression.
George, we still do/could have impact, but the problem (IMO) is what de Tocqueville described. Too many people like the public trough, too few have any understanding of critical/analytical thinking, and way way too many have little to no real understanding of free market economics. Folks want benefits without responsibilities or sacrifice, and for lo these many decades there is no lack of charlatans to promise that.N80 said:
alchemysa
Veteran Member
ihookem said:
Sure, but thats because the car makers don't give you much choice. Its amazing how fast most of the car makers revert to type as soon as gas prices drop. They roll out the big gas guzzlers like there will never be a fuel shortage again. They have an outdated manufacturing and sales structure that necessitates them to produce the biggest, most expensive, highest maintenance models possible. They simply don't want to make something that can be sold for $10,000 that requires minimal ongoing maintenance. Toyota, with the Prius, are leading the field but even they are just tentatively dabbling in this. I'd like to know what dealerships really think about the possibility of mass sales of all-electric vehicles. I bet they are very worried about the idea.
I also think a lot of decisions about car designs are based on corporate and government fleet sales. In other words they are designing cars for people who never put their hand in their own pocket to pay for fuel.
300UGUY
Super Member
I think most decisions are made by corporate types who drive company cars, with company gas, and get a new car every few weeks. And these cars are maintained by "executive garages" who prep, wash, and fuel them daily. In other words, these bozos never even put the gas in themselves, much less pay for anything. I work for a car company, I have seen this first hand. These guys live in a bubble.
300UGUY
Super Member
ihookem said:
I like your approach to business. Sounds like you know what it takes to compete. But your competition is local. The guys in manufacturing are competing with guys in China, Brazil, Mexico, Vietnam, etc. These guys will happily work for $2, $1 or less per hour. I don't care if you are union, non union, or a independent small business, you have a very hard time competing with 3rd world labor. I have several friends who owned or were employed in small, family owned manufacturing shops. All are out of business. I live in Michigan. Last year Electrolux Corporation, a Swedish corp, shut down the largest compressor plant in NA. ( Refrigeration stuff ). The state offered to give them a new plant. They refused, the labor savings of moving to mexico would pay for a new plant in one year. These people in Michigan only made $12 to $15 per hour. I also think that there are a lot of very bright young people out there, but they have no future in manufacturing.
ihookem
Gold Member
300 guy, you are looking in the worst economy in the nation, yup, Michigan. In Wisconsin there are manufacturing companies hiring. Taxes are high, everyhting is igh in Wisconsin but you can find a manufacturing job in the Milw. area. I know moving is hard but the west side of the pond isn't all that bad. You have to work though and the slackers don't last when it slows down. Later, ihookem.
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