DF-354 Dongfeng Tractor Hydraulic Problem

[Soundguy]

Yep.. once you get enough 'standards'.. nothing is standard anymore.

That worldwide standard you speak of.. now that would be very nice.... though i doubt it will happen.. ho-hum...

Soundguy

 

[lp15404]

I received the gear pump from Ranch Hand Supply in Virginia today. The pump looked the same as my pump on the DF354 except that the front plate on my pump was rectangular and extended past the edges of the pump. My pump mounts to the engine assemby with four bolts on the corners of the front plate.
The Jinma pump mounts with two bolts that go all the way though the pump and screws into the engine mount.

I looked at the CBT-E316 pump that my dealer sent me. I thought when I first received it that it could not fit my tractor, but after looking again, I saw that it would indeed fit although there are some differences. When I first looked at my pump I thought that the mount was square, but later I saw that it is rectangular and if I turned the pump 90 degrees, it would mount on the housing.

I removed my pump and installed the CBT-E316 pump. When I took my pump off the tractor, the gasket separated into many pieces. The pump from the dealer did not have a gasket, but I decided that I really did not need one since I did not see any oil around the shaft of the pump when I removed the old one. The new pump flange that mounts to the tractor was not nearly as thick as the old CBN-E314 pump that I removed. I had to find some washers to put on the bolts so that I could tighten the bolts into the housing.

After I got the new pump installed, I drained all of the hydraulic fluid ( 7 gallons ) from the gearbox and refilled it with new fluid. I started the tractor up and checked for leaks. Everything seemed to be ok. I did not see any leaks, and the front end loader appeared to be working ok. It took a while for the power steering to start working, but it did begin working ok. I pulled the tractor into my shed and I decided to check for leaks one more time, and all of a sudden oil started gushing from underneath the engine. I turned off the engine and saw that the oil was coming from the overflow hose on top of the engine. I checked the oil level in the engine and it was full to the top of the stick. Apparently the new pump that I put on the tractor from the dealer has a bad seal and the fluid hydraulic fluid is going back into the engine.

If I did not have bad luck, I would have no luck at all.

 

[Soundguy]

Hmmm... New pump with bad seal?? maybee... OR.. you did not fix the problem, and the pump was deadheading, and then blew the seal. Since you said the ps was not working.. I'd bet the leak problem is int hat section of the system...

Soundguy

I received the gear pump from Ranch Hand Supply in Virginia today. The pump looked the same as my pump on the DF354 except that the front plate on my pump was rectangular and extended past the edges of the pump. My pump mounts to the engine assemby with four bolts on the corners of the front plate.
The Jinma pump mounts with two bolts that go all the way though the pump and screws into the engine mount.

I looked at the CBT-E316 pump that my dealer sent me. I thought when I first received it that it could not fit my tractor, but after looking again, I saw that it would indeed fit although there are some differences. When I first looked at my pump I thought that the mount was square, but later I saw that it is rectangular and if I turned the pump 90 degrees, it would mount on the housing.

I removed my pump and installed the CBT-E316 pump. When I took my pump off the tractor, the gasket separated into many pieces. The pump from the dealer did not have a gasket, but I decided that I really did not need one since I did not see any oil around the shaft of the pump when I removed the old one. The new pump flange that mounts to the tractor was not nearly as thick as the old CBN-E314 pump that I removed. I had to find some washers to put on the bolts so that I could tighten the bolts into the housing.

After I got the new pump installed, I drained all of the hydraulic fluid ( 7 gallons ) from the gearbox and refilled it with new fluid. I started the tractor up and checked for leaks. Everything seemed to be ok. I did not see any leaks, and the front end loader appeared to be working ok. It took a while for the power steering to start working, but it did begin working ok. I pulled the tractor into my shed and I decided to check for leaks one more time, and all of a sudden oil started gushing from underneath the engine. I turned off the engine and saw that the oil was coming from the overflow hose on top of the engine. I checked the oil level in the engine and it was full to the top of the stick. Apparently the new pump that I put on the tractor from the dealer has a bad seal and the fluid hydraulic fluid is going back into the engine.

If I did not have bad luck, I would have no luck at all.

 

[DwayneB]

If I did not have bad luck, I would have no luck at all.

Man, sounds like my luck sometimes. I've heard that one of those pumps needs an adapter to fit. Even on a Jinma. Hate to see you out money but you will get it. Does sound like you still have a flow probem.

 

[JohnS]

It is highly likely that the deadhead is still occuring and that is what caused the seal to blow. The seal blowing is much more common than the pump overheating. As far as the gasket, it sounds like a paper or cork type. Should be easy enough to make your own.

Is this a 1 or 2 pump system? I thought it was a 2 pump system, and usually the power steering is on a different pump than the 3pt and fel. Also, take the fel out of it, until you know it is fixed, by reconnecting the chinese QDs. Not many DF354 owners here, so we don't know your exact hyd plumbing. Most input, including mine, is based on other chinese tractors. If you could sketch out your hyd system and post, that might help with some answers.

 

[bjr]

I've a JM354 and the 3pt or the remotes operate from the rear pump of the two pump mount on front right side of engine. The control between the 3pt and the remotes is from a bolt type valve on the left side just under the seat. Now, if I've disconnected the remote and not turned the bolt back for the 3pt operation the pump dead heads. I've not seen thiis bolt valve discussed here yet. I understand that the problem tractor only has like 15 hrs. on it so I would think that it would be wise to look at all the options on the complete hydraulic system. I tee in a pressure guage to be able to moniter the pressures now. bjr

 

[lp15404]

The tractor has a 2 pump system. I called the dealer back and he said he will get me a new pump. He seems to think the problem is with the new pump that he sent me for the FEL. He said that he ordered a CBN-E314 but they sent him the CBT-E316. He said that the CBT-E316 is being used now instead of the CBN-E314. As far as the valve on the 3pt hitch under the seat, I have opened it all the way. I think that is the way it is supposed to be set since I have nothing hooked to the hydraulics from the rear of the tractor.

I did not mention that in order to remove the FEL pump, I have to remove a pipe on the power steering pump because it runs directly behind the pump for the FEL and the pump won't come off with the pipe in the way. I think that is why the steering was slow to start working yesterday. It probably took a while to prime the pump.

I decided to put the old CBN-E314 pump back on the tractor since it did not have the problem of leaking hydraulic fluid into the engine crankcase. I had a terrible time removing the old gasket material, but I cleaned it as best I could and made myself a new gasket. I drained the oil in the engine and put a new oil filter on it and then refilled the oil in the engine. I put the old pump back on and added more hydraulic fluid. I let it run for a few minutes. I did not see any problems so far. The FEL is working and the steering seems to be working. I will have to check it out better tomorrow since I have a dinner to go to now.

 

[Soundguy]

My bet is/was a deadhead form badly mated qd's, and all this on and off work corrected that seatring issue..

gotta love those chinese for plumbing everything with (poorly fitting) qd's BEFORE the system reliefs... gosh what an engineering feat... I'll bet they make more money selling replacement hyd pumps than selling the tractor...!! ( smiley face.. )

Soundguy

 

[lp15404]

I checked all of the fluid levels in my tractor this morning and then I ran the tractor for about a half hour. I did not detect any leaks and I don't see the fluid level rising in the crankcase. The loader and the power steering appear to be operating normally. Until something else happens, I guess I will suspect that the quick disconnect coupler was the problem.

Thanks to everyone who has offered help or advise.

 

[GuglioLS]

Larry,

I'm glad you have your hydraulics functioning properly.

I have a few questions about that new CBT-E316 pump your dealer sent you.
Did it have a splined shaft that is about 2" - 3" long ? you mentioned it was different than the CBN-314 pump but that it would bolt up to the engine?

After carefully reading all the posts you had said that after installing the CBT-E316 pump that the FEL WAS working but that after pulling the tractor into your shed that you had noticed the engine was full of hydraulic fluid.

And basically all you did to fix that problem was to install the new CBN-314 pump. This tells me that you had already fixed the possible dead head problem.

The Chinese hydraulic pumps are designed to rotate in either direction, CW or CCW - PROVIDED that the internal ported pressure plates are orientated in the correct position.

My interest in the CBN 316 pump is more hydraulic flow than a 314 pump. I have been trying to find a pump with more flow than the 314 pump and if you would please confirm that you were able to bolt up the 316 pump and that the suction & pressure port holes were aligned with the existing plumbing tubes / hoses.

As a side note up untill now it was my understanding that the 316 pump was configured to run a backhoe by being attached to the back of a Jinma tractor just above the PTO shaft. And the 316 pump did not have a protruding Splined shaft but rather a slotted keyway to rotate the pump with a coupler.

My theory is - I think that 316 pump would have worked without blowing the shaft seal if it were rotating in the correct direction - IE taken apart and the ported pressure plates flipped "up side down". - Without being told, there would be no way of you knowing which direction of rotation the pump was configured for. I know this first hand from experience I received when I upgraded from a 310 pump to a 314 pump - It kept blowing the front seal every time I tried to move the FEL. After removing, fixing and re-installing the pump about 3 times - I finally figured out what to do to keep the seal from blowing and that was to flip the internal pressure plates.

Please let me know about that 316 pump.

Thank you,
Larry G

 

[GuglioLS]

My bet is/was a deadhead form badly mated qd's, and all this on and off work corrected that seatring issue..

gotta love those chinese for plumbing everything with (poorly fitting) qd's BEFORE the system reliefs... gosh what an engineering feat... I'll bet they make more money selling replacement hyd pumps than selling the tractor...!! ( smiley face.. )

Soundguy

Yo Soundguy, I am not going to let that blanket statement go unchallanged-

The Chinese QD's are not poor fitting - when mated with another Chinese QD. The problem comes in when someone tries to install a FEL with a non Chinese QD. The dealers who know what they are doing will make sure to configure the QD's so that both mating parts of the QD are from the same manufacturer. Simple Logic.

Now, as far as a relief valve -
The Chinese have not caught on in that area yet- too busy making money on hydraulic pumps? But in all fairness, the origional hydraulic design was not configured for a FEL so the relief valve was, and still is, inside the TPH hydraulics lift box.

IMHO - Any (knowledagable) dealer should know this and SHOULD offer the end customer the option to install a post pump relief valve. And if not, educate the customer on what can happen.

 

[GuglioLS]

I removed the quick-disconnect coupler and took it to my local Car Quest store and they were able to give me a connector that works for $4.89. The coupler is not a quick-disconnect. I just put it on and it appears to be working ok. At least I don't see any leaks..........

Just one more thing to take a look at to make sure you are "out of the woods"

The FEL most likely has TWO sets of Quick Connects - one going into the FEL (the one you removed) and one comming out of the FEL.

Make sure both ends (male and female) of the remaining quick connect are from the same manufacturer.

Larry G

 

[Soundguy]

OK. then how about this:

In reference about the QD's. The qd's on my older JD batwing and the qd's onmy much newer NH tractor mated up perfectly.... Different manufacturer I'll wager too. That just goes to show you that as long as the QD manufacturer builds the mating surfaces to correct spec... you can expect them to work. That tells me the tolerance is off on the chineses qd.. OR it is not a direct compatible part.. but rather.. can only be mated to it's manufacturers part... that's either an assembly line issue at the QD plant.. or a local standard / money saving feature at the tractor plant, IMHO..

As for the relief. Well.. if the chinese are not building these setups with a FEL in mind.. then whey are there QDS betweent he pump and relief in the first place. I've seen lots of jinma between nortrac, homier, and independednt dealers.. I've not seen one that didn't have the qd at the hyd pump. I really doubt it is the dealers on this side that are adding them all.. Many o fthe independent dealers i talked too were just landscapers or business owners who picked up the line for extra money.. have no idea about anything to do with them.. including the name of the machine or the engine manufacturer,.. I just don't see those guys going out and modifying the hyd system.. vs.. just getting it that way out of the crate or shipping container.. etc.

Comments on that from dealers? do they come like that.. or is ever one modifed by adding a qd inline with the hyd pump.. then you dispose of the original hyd line? e tc? How about it?

Should, would, could, .. that said.. I think it'sfairly obvious we see lots of hyds problems on this fourm that most likely lead back to a pair of qd's not passing oil..
One dealer I spoke to here, said he did offer a retro kit to add the relief.. but it added about 200$ tot he tractor price.. and the purchasers.. who were buying a economy tractor anyway would scoff at it... etc.
IMHO.. just putting on a good pair of QD's.. for probably a quarter of that price seems like it would solve 75% of the problems.. that and 50 cents worth of zip ties.. etc.

Another idea would be to have the pump plumbed directly to a set of aux remotes, and then tap pressure from there.... and have a relief/ detent resetting valves there. My NH has this feature. I fthe relief deadheads the spoolm resets to neutral. I like that. i can lift my SA cyl's without eqgle eye'ing them to find max travel... the system detects the pressure buildup and resets the spool with relief action.. etc.

Again though.. the more you overtick the plumbing.. the less of an economy tractor it is..

Another option is to plumb the hyd pump directly to the hyd 3pt top cover.. and make provisions for the remote ports built in tot he top cover, with system relief servicing all ports.. including 3pt. My older fords use this method.. I have a 660 that has aux hyd spool taps of fthe hyd top cover. pump supplies oil to the 3pt and remotes, and has 1 relief. Incedentally.. I have loader on that tractor.. has SA lift cyls', and DA curl/dup cyls.. works great.. and I don't worry about the qd's from the spoolset tot he loader cyls coming loose and smoking hundreds of dollars worth of components...

Soundguy

Yo Soundguy, I am not going to let that blanket statement go unchallanged-

The Chinese QD's are not poor fitting - when mated with another Chinese QD. The problem comes in when someone tries to install a FEL with a non Chinese QD. The dealers who know what they are doing will make sure to configure the QD's so that both mating parts of the QD are from the same manufacturer. Simple Logic.

Now, as far as a relief valve -
The Chinese have not caught on in that area yet- too busy making money on hydraulic pumps? But in all fairness, the origional hydraulic design was not configured for a FEL so the relief valve was, and still is, inside the TPH hydraulics lift box.

IMHO - Any (knowledagable) dealer should know this and SHOULD offer the end customer the option to install a post pump relief valve. And if not, educate the customer on what can happen.

 

[lp15404]

Since my last update, I discovered that the tractor is still having the same problems with the front end loader and the power steering intermittently not working. The problem was not the quick disconnect coupler as I had originally thought. I have found that it works well on level ground, but if I have the tractor on a fairly steep slope where the front end is pointing uphill, the loader gets real jumpy and the power steering starts failing.

My dealer still says that he still thinks the problem is the gear pump for the front end loader. I have been waiting for nearly four months to get a pump from the dealer, but I still have only gotten excuses and no pump. If the gear pump is bad for the loader, that would still not explain why the steering also fails at the same time. The dealer did send me a new hydraulic screen filter. It was not wrapped in any type of cover and it was very dirty inside. I washed it in soap and water and let it dry out before installing it. The old screen that I removed had a lot of what looked like rusty metal flakes on the outside. I have rechecked the hydraulic connections and did not find any loose connections. I tried overfilling the fluid level in the transmission with the rams fully extended on the loader just to make sure that the fluid level is not the problem, but that did not help.

Another problem that I had with the tractor since my last update, is that the brake pull rod on the left side of the tractor broke in half. The dealer did send me a new brake pull rod and I fixed that problem.

I had to get some work done, so I bought a new tractor. I have been pretty busy trying to catch up on my work with the new tractor. I bought a New Holland TC30 which is what I had before I bought the DF-354. I had used the TC30 for nearly three years and never had any problems with it.

 

[Soundguy]

Hmm.. tractor faces up and hyds and PS get jumpy?? Sounds like the pump is starving for oil.. and if this is a 2 stage pump then both sections are starving.

Is your oil level in the hyd section correct?

Soundguy

 

[lp15404]

The dipstick has some X's on the bottom of the stick with a line above them. Just above the X's is the number 1 and then a little higher on the stick is the number 2. I filled up the transmission with fluid all the way up to the number 2 on the stick with all of the hydraulic rams on the loader fully extended so that they were full of fluid. This is with the dispstick screwed all the way in. I am sure that it has enough hydraulic fluid. In fact I am sure that it probably has too much at this point. It still starts failing when it is on a incline so that the pumps have to pull fluid uphill. It does seem that it is having trouble getting enough fluid to the pumps. That could be because the pump is bad, but then I would assume that the pump for the power steering is also bad. When I replaced the filter screen, I removed the filter weldment that holds the screen and cleaned it out as well as I could. The filter weldment has two pipes extending from the front end. One pipe is for the loader and the other is for the steering. I could not get the rubber hoses off of the pipes when I removed the weldment, so I don't know if there could still be some trash in the lines between the weldment and the pumps.

 

[Soundguy]

Is this unit using a 2 stage pump? If so.. and it is having a suction problem.. it will effect both sections o fthe pump.

I would be surprised if a pump that was pumping fine flat, would loose it's prime so fast, while running, when on an incline.. unless the pickup tube has a hole in it.. Course'.. I'm not familiar witht he system.. so I'm not sure what the pump uses as a pickup... perhaps a line from a filter bracket.. etc.

In any case.. when the problems start.. I'd bet the pump is starving.

I'd look for holes in suction lines. or pickup lines.. perhaps the hole is normall under the oil when on level ground. if it uses a pickup tube that is a welded tube.. perhaps it has a split seem?

Soundguy

 

[lp15404]

I think you are correct when you say it is probably starving for fluid. The weldment that holds the screen filter is mounted just in front of the real axle near the bottom of the transmission. It has a flat fitting that bolts onto the transmission housing that looks like a small pipe that drops down about 2 inches and is welded into what looks like a 3" diameter horizontal pipe that is about a foot long. On the front of the weldment there are two metal tubes which extend out about 3". Both tubes have rubber hoses on them that are about 18" long and then they are clamped to metal pipes. One pipe goes to a CBN-E314 pump that drives the loader and the other goes to a CBN-E306 pump that is for the power steering.
I would assume that if the tractor is on a pretty steep incline, that the fluid in the filter weldment is trying to flow backwards back into the transmission, so it would take more suction to get the fluid into the pumps.

 

[Soundguy]

As long as the suction pipes are imersed.. i doubt that little bit of extra suction head needed would cause a cavitation or starvation problem.. we are talking about less than a foot of extra head if the machine were standing straight up.

My guess is somewhere there is a pinhole leak.. and at a steep enough angle, the leak is uncovered, and then the pump feed tube is sucking air...

that's my -guess- anyway.

I've not seen a diagram or schematic of that plumbing system.. though if you have one.. it may help in diagnosing the problem..

Soundguy

 

[tat2z1969]

My neighbor had a Bull dog 354 (DF 354), had the same problem and drove him nuts for about 1 year. One day I went over to help him move hay and we got talking about it. What we found was the hose down by the trans was defective, it was seperated inside where you couldn't see it, going up hill the pump pulled harder and the inside closed off, cost him like $18.00 at the local hydraulic shop to make up an new line and it fixed his problem.
I read on another site someone had the same problem and after doing a bunch of stuff finally found a rag in the trans that blocked his line off going up hill, let the tractor idle on a flat and the problem went away.