DF-354 Dongfeng Tractor Hydraulic Problem

   / DF-354 Dongfeng Tractor Hydraulic Problem #31  
Soundguy said:
My bet is/was a deadhead form badly mated qd's, and all this on and off work corrected that seatring issue..

gotta love those chinese for plumbing everything with (poorly fitting) qd's BEFORE the system reliefs... gosh what an engineering feat... I'll bet they make more money selling replacement hyd pumps than selling the tractor...!! ( smiley face.. )

Soundguy

Yo Soundguy, I am not going to let that blanket statement go unchallanged-

The Chinese QD's are not poor fitting - when mated with another Chinese QD. The problem comes in when someone tries to install a FEL with a non Chinese QD. The dealers who know what they are doing will make sure to configure the QD's so that both mating parts of the QD are from the same manufacturer. Simple Logic.

Now, as far as a relief valve -
The Chinese have not caught on in that area yet- too busy making money on hydraulic pumps? But in all fairness, the origional hydraulic design was not configured for a FEL so the relief valve was, and still is, inside the TPH hydraulics lift box.

IMHO - Any (knowledagable) dealer should know this and SHOULD offer the end customer the option to install a post pump relief valve. And if not, educate the customer on what can happen.
 
   / DF-354 Dongfeng Tractor Hydraulic Problem #32  
lp15404 said:
I removed the quick-disconnect coupler and took it to my local Car Quest store and they were able to give me a connector that works for $4.89. The coupler is not a quick-disconnect. I just put it on and it appears to be working ok. At least I don't see any leaks..........

Just one more thing to take a look at to make sure you are "out of the woods"

The FEL most likely has TWO sets of Quick Connects - one going into the FEL (the one you removed) and one comming out of the FEL.

Make sure both ends (male and female) of the remaining quick connect are from the same manufacturer.

Larry G
 
   / DF-354 Dongfeng Tractor Hydraulic Problem #33  
OK. then how about this:

In reference about the QD's. The qd's on my older JD batwing and the qd's onmy much newer NH tractor mated up perfectly.... Different manufacturer I'll wager too. That just goes to show you that as long as the QD manufacturer builds the mating surfaces to correct spec... you can expect them to work. That tells me the tolerance is off on the chineses qd.. OR it is not a direct compatible part.. but rather.. can only be mated to it's manufacturers part... that's either an assembly line issue at the QD plant.. or a local standard / money saving feature at the tractor plant, IMHO..

As for the relief. Well.. if the chinese are not building these setups with a FEL in mind.. then whey are there QDS betweent he pump and relief in the first place. I've seen lots of jinma between nortrac, homier, and independednt dealers.. I've not seen one that didn't have the qd at the hyd pump. I really doubt it is the dealers on this side that are adding them all.. Many o fthe independent dealers i talked too were just landscapers or business owners who picked up the line for extra money.. have no idea about anything to do with them.. including the name of the machine or the engine manufacturer,.. I just don't see those guys going out and modifying the hyd system.. vs.. just getting it that way out of the crate or shipping container.. etc.

Comments on that from dealers? do they come like that.. or is ever one modifed by adding a qd inline with the hyd pump.. then you dispose of the original hyd line? e tc? How about it?

Should, would, could, .. that said.. I think it'sfairly obvious we see lots of hyds problems on this fourm that most likely lead back to a pair of qd's not passing oil..
One dealer I spoke to here, said he did offer a retro kit to add the relief.. but it added about 200$ tot he tractor price.. and the purchasers.. who were buying a economy tractor anyway would scoff at it... etc.
IMHO.. just putting on a good pair of QD's.. for probably a quarter of that price seems like it would solve 75% of the problems.. that and 50 cents worth of zip ties.. etc.

Another idea would be to have the pump plumbed directly to a set of aux remotes, and then tap pressure from there.... and have a relief/ detent resetting valves there. My NH has this feature. I fthe relief deadheads the spoolm resets to neutral. I like that. i can lift my SA cyl's without eqgle eye'ing them to find max travel... the system detects the pressure buildup and resets the spool with relief action.. etc.

Again though.. the more you overtick the plumbing.. the less of an economy tractor it is..

Another option is to plumb the hyd pump directly to the hyd 3pt top cover.. and make provisions for the remote ports built in tot he top cover, with system relief servicing all ports.. including 3pt. My older fords use this method.. I have a 660 that has aux hyd spool taps of fthe hyd top cover. pump supplies oil to the 3pt and remotes, and has 1 relief. Incedentally.. I have loader on that tractor.. has SA lift cyls', and DA curl/dup cyls.. works great.. and I don't worry about the qd's from the spoolset tot he loader cyls coming loose and smoking hundreds of dollars worth of components...

Soundguy

GuglioLS said:
Yo Soundguy, I am not going to let that blanket statement go unchallanged-

The Chinese QD's are not poor fitting - when mated with another Chinese QD. The problem comes in when someone tries to install a FEL with a non Chinese QD. The dealers who know what they are doing will make sure to configure the QD's so that both mating parts of the QD are from the same manufacturer. Simple Logic.

Now, as far as a relief valve -
The Chinese have not caught on in that area yet- too busy making money on hydraulic pumps? But in all fairness, the origional hydraulic design was not configured for a FEL so the relief valve was, and still is, inside the TPH hydraulics lift box.

IMHO - Any (knowledagable) dealer should know this and SHOULD offer the end customer the option to install a post pump relief valve. And if not, educate the customer on what can happen.
 
   / DF-354 Dongfeng Tractor Hydraulic Problem
  • Thread Starter
#34  
Since my last update, I discovered that the tractor is still having the same problems with the front end loader and the power steering intermittently not working. The problem was not the quick disconnect coupler as I had originally thought. I have found that it works well on level ground, but if I have the tractor on a fairly steep slope where the front end is pointing uphill, the loader gets real jumpy and the power steering starts failing.

My dealer still says that he still thinks the problem is the gear pump for the front end loader. I have been waiting for nearly four months to get a pump from the dealer, but I still have only gotten excuses and no pump. If the gear pump is bad for the loader, that would still not explain why the steering also fails at the same time. The dealer did send me a new hydraulic screen filter. It was not wrapped in any type of cover and it was very dirty inside. I washed it in soap and water and let it dry out before installing it. The old screen that I removed had a lot of what looked like rusty metal flakes on the outside. I have rechecked the hydraulic connections and did not find any loose connections. I tried overfilling the fluid level in the transmission with the rams fully extended on the loader just to make sure that the fluid level is not the problem, but that did not help.

Another problem that I had with the tractor since my last update, is that the brake pull rod on the left side of the tractor broke in half. The dealer did send me a new brake pull rod and I fixed that problem.

I had to get some work done, so I bought a new tractor. I have been pretty busy trying to catch up on my work with the new tractor. I bought a New Holland TC30 which is what I had before I bought the DF-354. I had used the TC30 for nearly three years and never had any problems with it.
 
   / DF-354 Dongfeng Tractor Hydraulic Problem #35  
Hmm.. tractor faces up and hyds and PS get jumpy?? Sounds like the pump is starving for oil.. and if this is a 2 stage pump then both sections are starving.

Is your oil level in the hyd section correct?

Soundguy
 
   / DF-354 Dongfeng Tractor Hydraulic Problem
  • Thread Starter
#36  
The dipstick has some X's on the bottom of the stick with a line above them. Just above the X's is the number 1 and then a little higher on the stick is the number 2. I filled up the transmission with fluid all the way up to the number 2 on the stick with all of the hydraulic rams on the loader fully extended so that they were full of fluid. This is with the dispstick screwed all the way in. I am sure that it has enough hydraulic fluid. In fact I am sure that it probably has too much at this point. It still starts failing when it is on a incline so that the pumps have to pull fluid uphill. It does seem that it is having trouble getting enough fluid to the pumps. That could be because the pump is bad, but then I would assume that the pump for the power steering is also bad. When I replaced the filter screen, I removed the filter weldment that holds the screen and cleaned it out as well as I could. The filter weldment has two pipes extending from the front end. One pipe is for the loader and the other is for the steering. I could not get the rubber hoses off of the pipes when I removed the weldment, so I don't know if there could still be some trash in the lines between the weldment and the pumps.
 
   / DF-354 Dongfeng Tractor Hydraulic Problem #37  
Is this unit using a 2 stage pump? If so.. and it is having a suction problem.. it will effect both sections o fthe pump.

I would be surprised if a pump that was pumping fine flat, would loose it's prime so fast, while running, when on an incline.. unless the pickup tube has a hole in it.. Course'.. I'm not familiar witht he system.. so I'm not sure what the pump uses as a pickup... perhaps a line from a filter bracket.. etc.

In any case.. when the problems start.. I'd bet the pump is starving.

I'd look for holes in suction lines. or pickup lines.. perhaps the hole is normall under the oil when on level ground. if it uses a pickup tube that is a welded tube.. perhaps it has a split seem?

Soundguy
 
   / DF-354 Dongfeng Tractor Hydraulic Problem
  • Thread Starter
#38  
I think you are correct when you say it is probably starving for fluid. The weldment that holds the screen filter is mounted just in front of the real axle near the bottom of the transmission. It has a flat fitting that bolts onto the transmission housing that looks like a small pipe that drops down about 2 inches and is welded into what looks like a 3" diameter horizontal pipe that is about a foot long. On the front of the weldment there are two metal tubes which extend out about 3". Both tubes have rubber hoses on them that are about 18" long and then they are clamped to metal pipes. One pipe goes to a CBN-E314 pump that drives the loader and the other goes to a CBN-E306 pump that is for the power steering.
I would assume that if the tractor is on a pretty steep incline, that the fluid in the filter weldment is trying to flow backwards back into the transmission, so it would take more suction to get the fluid into the pumps.
 
   / DF-354 Dongfeng Tractor Hydraulic Problem #39  
As long as the suction pipes are imersed.. i doubt that little bit of extra suction head needed would cause a cavitation or starvation problem.. we are talking about less than a foot of extra head if the machine were standing straight up.

My guess is somewhere there is a pinhole leak.. and at a steep enough angle, the leak is uncovered, and then the pump feed tube is sucking air...

that's my -guess- anyway.

I've not seen a diagram or schematic of that plumbing system.. though if you have one.. it may help in diagnosing the problem..

Soundguy
 
   / DF-354 Dongfeng Tractor Hydraulic Problem #40  
My neighbor had a Bull dog 354 (DF 354), had the same problem and drove him nuts for about 1 year. One day I went over to help him move hay and we got talking about it. What we found was the hose down by the trans was defective, it was seperated inside where you couldn't see it, going up hill the pump pulled harder and the inside closed off, cost him like $18.00 at the local hydraulic shop to make up an new line and it fixed his problem.
I read on another site someone had the same problem and after doing a bunch of stuff finally found a rag in the trans that blocked his line off going up hill, let the tractor idle on a flat and the problem went away.
 

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