Did Chrysler beat GM to the punch?

[houstonscott]

They makie sense for me Al, they're always broken and expensive to fix. I LOVE them! Fred

That's just sour grapes from those who can't afford one. HS.

 

[nahfwt]

What I mean by electric will never make sense is because electric can never be as efficient as burning the fuel in the car directly to produce energy rather than turn it into electricity, transmit it over a power line, step it down, invert it, put it in a battery, take it out, then use it. Sorry, that's always going to be a looser, and will never make sense. HS

What about all the energy used to drill for the oil, transport the crude, refine it, transport it to the gas station, and run the pump to put it into your vehicle?

 

[houstonscott]

What about all the energy used to drill for the oil, transport the crude, refine it, transport it to the gas station, and run the pump to put it into your vehicle?

All that happens with the electric car too, think about it a second. What's generating the electricity? HS

 

[jejeosborne]

What I mean by electric will never make sense is because electric can never be as efficient as burning the fuel in the car directly to produce energy rather than turn it into electricity, transmit it over a power line, step it down, invert it, put it in a battery, take it out, then use it. Sorry, that's always going to be a looser, and will never make sense. HS

The missing piece is that internal combustion engines are not efficient, about 25%. Most of the Btu content of the fuel burned doesn't propel the vehicle. The electric vehicle can travel more distance on the same number of Btu's. 33.7 kwh's equals a gallon of gasoline. If electricity cost $0.12/kwh, that is $4.04/gallon gasoline. Factor in idling times at stop lights, drive throughs, etc and the fact you can travel at least twice the distance per btu and things CAN make financial sense.

 

[houstonscott]

The missing piece is that internal combustion engines are not efficient, about 25%. Most of the Btu content of the fuel burned doesn't propel the vehicle. The electric vehicle can travel more distance on the same number of Btu's. 33.7 kwh's equals a gallon of gasoline. If electricity cost $0.12/kwh, that is $4.04/gallon gasoline. Factor in idling times at stop lights, drive throughs, etc and the fact you can travel at least twice the distance per btu and things CAN make financial sense.

Once all the looses are added up its not even close, you can loose half the power in the transmission lines alone. Besides that the pollution systems on automobiles are much cleaner that those at the power plant, that makes the car a smaller emitter too. HS

 

[MikePA]

Those Merc, BMW, and Audi models also don't make sense.

Whether they make sense or not is a different discussion.

 

[jejeosborne]

Once all the looses are added up its not even close, you can loose half the power in the transmission lines alone. Besides that the pollution systems on automobiles are much cleaner that those at the power plant, that makes the car a smaller emitter too. HS

Half the power is lost in transmission lines? What country do you live in? Here in the United States, transmission and distribution losses are about 7%. Some undeveloped countries may be around 50% but I doubt they are interested in electric cars. I am an energy trader and have to buy transmission. A 50 MW block of electricity will have 2 MW losses across the average control area. Regardless of any losses, cost of delivered electricity is cheaper than the cost of delivered gasoline per mile.

Pollution is another story, could be dirtier or cleaner depending on the source of generation. I have been behind some nasty belching cars on the road.

 

[houstonscott]

Half the power is lost in transmission lines? What country do you live in? Here in the United States, transmission and distribution losses are about 7%. Some undeveloped countries may be around 50% but I doubt they are interested in electric cars. I am an energy trader and have to buy transmission. A 50 MW block of electricity will have 2 MW losses across the average control area. Regardless of any losses, cost of delivered electricity is cheaper than the cost of delivered gasoline per mile. Pollution is another story, could be dirtier or cleaner depending on the source of generation. I have been behind some nasty belching cars on the road.

I guess I understand your predigest toward electric now. Have you considered the 1.5 mile long train and the coal mine involved in the delivery? I think you are wrong. You take one gallon of diesel and generate electricity and put into an electric car you'll fine the car will move about 2 miles, where if you put that gallon of diesel in the high pressure diesel car, it might go as much as 100 miles (VW Polo TDi). Even your admitted loss of 7% is gigantic! HS

 

[jejeosborne]

I guess I understand your predigest toward electric now. Have you considered the 1.5 mile long train and the coal mine involved in the delivery? I think you are wrong. You take one gallon of diesel and generate electricity and put into an electric car you'll fine the car will move about 2 miles, where if you put that gallon of diesel in the high pressure diesel car, it might go as much as 100 miles (VW Polo TDi). Even your admitted loss of 7% is gigantic! HS

I guess I misinterpreted your blanket statement that "no electric vehicle makes sense". I thought we were talking economics.

Yes, I included the long coal train in my financial example. I mentioned "delivered cost" of both gasoline and electricity. The $0.12/KWH includes the cost of mining and delivering coal, scrubbing and chemicals and ancillary power for the power plant, transmission and distribution, overhead for utility, etc.

Same was true with the delivery of the gasoline which might have involved barges, trains, or monster tanker ships and even paying Apu (quickie mart worker).

Point being that coal is dirt cheap and contains a lot of energy.

Realize that even that super efficient VW TDi engine is wasting about 60 percent of that diesel to create wasted heat, driving pumps, internal friction, etc not used for propulsion. 6 gallons out of 10 are wasted just at the vehicle.

I am no expert in electric cars and have no experience with them. Any time I see blanket statements made, I enjoy a good debate and jump in. Hope you realize I come in peace.

 

[houstonscott]

You could make the waist heat argument in boiling water too, (what a power plant does) and the mechanical with the generator, (up the stack so to say) this is a matter of physics, hence the blanket statement, because it's true. While I see a need to not have the emitter in a particular area like a train station, and max torque at front of the power curve electric trains make sense. Maybe even in areas that are prone to summer heat inversion (LA) you might want the emitter to be away from the populated area in that inversion zone. But the electric car can't out perform a car that burns the fuel directly, it's just a matter of physics. HS