Diesel emissions

[RayfromTX]

I have a '74 Fiat Allis motor grader that I run about 50 hours a year. It smokes and stinks like any old diesel tractor. If I am running it down wind the exhaust catches me and it's pretty bad but I pretend I like the smell. (I don't)

I have a 6 month old LS4140H with 160 hours on it already. I am very grateful that it doesn't smell like my grader, especially when it's in the woods and there isn't much wind. I start it in the garage and can just barely detect any odor at all and it isn't bad. There is slightly more when it is in Regen. The dang thing runs like a top and I'm actually quite happy that it has the emissions system on it. If it costs me an arm and a leg to fix some day I'll change my tune but really I'm not worried about it. I can't say the emissions system on my cars over the years have ever had any repairs at all. I have heard of people changing out cat converters but for me the modern engines just start and run and I'd never want to go back to the engines of my youth.

I remember setting points and changing points and condensers and setting the timing and using the vacuum gauge that I still have for no reason. I also don't miss pushing the accelerator half way to set the choke and then nursing the pedal for a few minutes until the engine warmed up so it would run right. My tractor starts in cold weather far better than the ether loving grader. I do recall the backlash from me and others when emissions systems were added on cars but it didn't last long. Modern equipment tends to speak for itself when it comes to improved performance. Yes, there are some advantages to the old simpler systems but on balance, give me new.

 

[ultrarunner]

VW and Audi have had lots of Diesel Emission problems and I believe it also extends to Porsche.

Due to allergies and not wanting to take allergy meds all the time I wear a good 3M respirator when I am doing tractor work... all I know is even my 1970 D3 exhaust never has made it past the respirator...

I do like the rear exhaust on the 53 NAA and not so much the vertical exhaust on the 740 and I may change it... both gasoline.

Technology has made some marvelous advances but they don't always get it right out of the gate... I am concerned of getting stuck with something obsolete or simply didn't measure up to expectations...

 

[prof fate]

My 2018 kioti CK3510 has regen'd 3 times, just about 150 hours now. First was 34 hours, then 75 and again at 140 hours. Did it while I was working, took about 10 minutes.

The switches are in case you need to shut it down when i wants/needs to regen, so you can force a regen upon starting it back up.

Dealer told me they expect 3000 hours of life from the DPF and it's currently $300 for a new one. In the 4 or 5 years since DPF was put on kioti's they've never had one issue and have yet to sell any filters.

Operate warm, 2k rpm and you won't have issues. Idle it about in 20F temps and never let it get to op temp and you may run into issues.

I went and looked at Kubota and Deere's today.
The fella at the Deere store told me that the regen process took about an hour with the tractor parked.
He pointed out a rocker switch that he said was either "ON" or "AUTO", I think....
Said if you run it in auto it would change the regen cycle/process, or something. I should have paid better attention, but I was really more interested in the models without the DPF.

Since I'm such a lucky guy , something tells me that as soon as I buy a tractor with a DPF they'll come out with something more refined to where you don't have to put up with that regen process. However, the salesman said the units 75hp and up have both DPF and DEF, and maybe the next step will be the same for the under 75hp units. Who knows.....

If it's mechanically injected I'd guess no problem removing a filter. If it's EFI then it can get a lot mroe complex as the computer is 'up to something' - sensors, time counting maybe, etc.

And this assumes there isn't (and I'm sure there is) a system approach - the filter adds back pressure so the rest of the engine is designed accordingly to compensate - aka Expect, it.

And it would of course void all warranties, and having been a dealership mechanic for a decade plus, when someone brought in somethign with 'issues' and they've removed parts..well, we'd tend to turn them away. Diagnostics depend on the parts being there...you go modifying things and no telling what side effects will occur. easier for a dealer to not get involved in some nightmare.

So you become your own mechanic then.

So is your L3200 an EGR type? EGR is less complex than DPF...less stuff to go wrong and less expensive. But also arguably not as good for engine longevity.

Both systems would seem to be fairly easy to disconnect.

So if you don't like emission controls and it really does seem to be a bother for some folks, then why not just disconnect the EGR and DPF systems? I understand that the air belongs to us all, but really....what's the difference between doing that and allowing them to buy an older machine with a pre-emissions control engine?
rScotty

 

[rScotty]

And it would of course void all warranties, and having been a dealership mechanic for a decade plus, when someone brought in somethign with 'issues' and they've removed parts..well, we'd tend to turn them away. Diagnostics depend on the parts being there...you go modifying things and no telling what side effects will occur. easier for a dealer to not get involved in some nightmare.

So you become your own mechanic then.

Yes. Anytime a person moves from opinion to action it involves some degree of responsibility. In the case of emissions that is complicated because the air we breathe belongs to everyone - whether they own a tractor or not.

And then there's the tricky question of whether any particular pollution control feature is being driven politically or scientifically.

As with anything these days, the answers seem to involve more than a little thought & education.
When searching for answers to technical problems I've found it helps not to eliminate anything just because of my own bias or opinion.
rScotty

 

[buickanddeere]

Before the DPF age tractor diesels still didn't exactly breath very well on their own. Starting about 2008, Kubota used EGR technology and parts to reburn the exhaust fumes in a lot of their tractors so that they could meet an loophole in the emission standard called "Tier IV Interm". Tier IV Interm reduced the nitrous oxides allowed in the exhaust but overlooked the resulting increased soot and particle production. Not good for motors, and made the diesel smoke even thicker. Some of those had terrible exhaust fumes, but technically they did meet the letter of the emission law.

So you have to go back at least 10 years to get to a place where engine efficiency was more important than emission control.
If that is your goal, look for something without EGR as well as without DPF. But you may not like the fumes very much.
luck,
rScotty

EGR has zero to do with returning exhaust gasses to "clean them up". EGR is to lower the combustion temperature and reduce the production of NOX. Which causes more and larger soot particles and the do-gooders at the EPA seen an opportunity to intrude further with particulate filters etc.

 

[buickanddeere]

Mahindra is doing it without dpf flters.

At what HP levels ?

 

[buickanddeere]

Doosan, Mahindra, Massey, and some others are not using a DPF, but they are using something very similar. Those systems run hotter all of the time and are always burning soot off. I can't say whether they are better or not. Kubota, John Deere, Ford, Cummins, etc chose to go with DPF.

Hotter exhaust gasses reduce thermal efficiency by blowing btu's of energy up the stack that should be used to make crankshaft power.

 

[buickanddeere]

I keep seeing all these posts with "my tractor has this " and "my tractor has that ". Unless you stipulate what year and HP such quotes mean nothing.

 

[ericm979]

VW/Audi had problems because they chose to cheat rather than spend the few hundreds per car that it would have taken to do it right. I bet they wish they could do that decision over.

All emissions controls are driven both by regulation and engineering. The regulation says what the standard is, then engineers and product planners decide how to meet the standard at the least cost and with acceptable reliability and performance. The regulators work with industry when forming the regulations as a regulation that can't be met is useless. Most problems come when the engineers and product planners chose a cheaper solution or cheaper parts in order to maximize profits. Sometimes they do something that's too cheap and it ends up failing too often.

The Mahindra DOC tractors are between 25 and 75hp. Above 75 the requirements are more strict and that's where DEF often comes in.

 

[Rmart30]

I sure like the smokeless train engines and excavating equipment they build now.:thumbsup:

You wouldnt if you had to work on them or pay for the repairs. I work for a equipment dealer and we work more now on emmissions related issues than we do any other thing on new dirt equipment. I will never own a piece of equipment that runs DPF or DEF.