Oil & Fuel Diesel newbie question: windchill

[falfrenzy]

The topic is gelling of fuel. Here is the scenario: 2 metal jerry cans full of summer diesel are on a farm. One can is in the un-insulated machine shed, and one is sitting outside in 30 mph wind blowing on it. Temperature is 0 degrees F.

Which can gels up quicker?

 

[CobyRupert]

What color is the outside jerry can and is the sun shining on it?

Do both cans have the same amount of fuel (and air) in them? Assume identical fuel source and treatment, water content, etc...

"Which can gels up quicker?" I assume this is when the ambient air temperature is dropping from an "above jelling" temperature.

Then the question becomes: Which can loses heat the fastest. All other things being equal, the can in the wind will be stripped of it's heat faster than one in static air, as long as the sun isn't adding (or has previously added) heat energy into the can.

 

[Motorboatin]

Windchill has no effect

Windchill is an estimate of what the temperature feels like as the wind increases and wicks water vapor away from your skin. To everything that doesn’t sweat 20 degrees is 20 regardless of wind speed

 

[CobyRupert]

What cools faster: A spoonful of hot soup, or a spoonful of hot soup that you blow on?

 

[falfrenzy]

Windchill has no effect

Windchill is an estimate of what the temperature feels like as the wind increases and wicks water vapor away from your skin. To everything that doesn’t sweat 20 degrees is 20 regardless of wind speed

I like CodyRuperts response as a retort.

 

[mddorange]

While stationed in Alaska, we got training for surviving the cold.

The only effect wind chill has on inanimate objects, such as car radiators, water pipes, fuel, etc. is to more quickly cool the object to the current air temperature. Objects will NOT cool below the actual air temperature.

 

[LouNY]

I have heard for decades that windchill has no effect.
I have to say bull.
Windchill may not effect the final temperature of inanimate objects, but;
the wind that creates wind chill will remove the residual heat being transferred faster and
get the product or device to the equilibrium temperature faster

Diesel newbie question: windchill
The topic is gelling of fuel. Here is the scenario: 2 metal jerry cans full of summer diesel are on a farm. One can is in the un-insulated machine shed, and one is sitting outside in 30 mph wind blowing on it. Temperature is 0 degrees F.

Which can gels up quicker?

If these cans are brought from a heated location at the same time and one left in a building and one outside in the wind with a 0 degree ambient temperature the one in the breeze will reach 0 before the one inside. They will both eventually reach the same temperature if both places are at the same temperature.

So while windchill has no effect on the final temperature it will effect the time to get there.

 

[coldsteelva]

One good thing to keep in mind is objects have thermal mass. Even though a shed/barn may be unheated, the sun will warm the ground, structure and its contents during the day. This will in turn cause the temperature of the structure AND its contents to fall at a slower rate. My unheated pole barn, with a bunch of steel implements will be warmer than ambient even after a night in the cold. It isn't just the movement of air, but the total mass of what is cooling. A solitary diesel can vs an entire structure of objects and a diesel can.

 

[ericm979]

I like CodyRuperts response as a retort.

Except it's not complete.

The one in the wind will cool down to 0 degrees faster than the one out of the wind but they'll both end up at 0 degrees. We will ignore the one in the open either gaining heat due to radiation from the sun or losing heat as it radiates to the night sky. The cans are losing heat by conduction to the ground, which we'll assume is the same for both cans. They also lose heat by convection to the air around them. The one in the wind is constantly having the slightly warmed air around it replaced with more cold air. The one in the shed is warming up a pool of air around it (assuming the air temp in the shed is the same as outside, which is probably wrong). The warmed air around the can convects upwards as it is now warmer than the air around it. This effect is slower than the wind outside, so the outside can cools faster.

If the cans started out at a temp higher than 0, which I assume what what the OP meant, the one in the wind would gel sooner.

 

[Reb954]

The topic is gelling of fuel. Here is the scenario: 2 metal jerry cans full of summer diesel are on a farm. One can is in the un-insulated machine shed, and one is sitting outside in 30 mph wind blowing on it. Temperature is 0 degrees F.

Which can gels up quicker?

Just put fuel treatment in both cans and be done with it. Sometimes too much time is spent thinking rather than just doing the task. And BTW, leaving cans of fuel out in the weather is just asking for problems.

 

[MossRoad]

While stationed in Alaska, we got training for surviving the cold.

The only effect wind chill has on inanimate objects, such as car radiators, water pipes, fuel, etc. is to more quickly cool the object to the current air temperature. Objects will NOT cool below the actual air temperature.

Except it's not complete.

The one in the wind will cool down to 0 degrees faster than the one out of the wind but they'll both end up at 0 degrees. We will ignore the one in the open either gaining heat due to radiation from the sun or losing heat as it radiates to the night sky. The cans are losing heat by conduction to the ground, which we'll assume is the same for both cans. They also lose heat by convection to the air around them. The one in the wind is constantly having the slightly warmed air around it replaced with more cold air. The one in the shed is warming up a pool of air around it (assuming the air temp in the shed is the same as outside, which is probably wrong). The warmed air around the can convects upwards as it is now warmer than the air around it. This effect is slower than the wind outside, so the outside can cools faster.

If the cans started out at a temp higher than 0, which I assume what what the OP meant, the one in the wind would gel sooner.

What these folks say is the correct answer.

If the air temp is zero degrees F, the fuel can't get colder than zero degrees F, wind or no wind.

The can that's exposed to the wind (and this is assuming it was warmer to start with) will cool down to zero F faster than the one that's not, but still, both will eventually end up at the same temp.

Now your uninsulated machine shed has another consideration. During the day, in winter, it's often colder in my shed and uninsulated garage than it is outside. It holds the cold in, like an icebox. But that has nothing to do with wind chill.

 

[millsan1]

Is one Synth or regular?

Will you shoot them with 9mm or 45?

How often will you change the fuel, every 5,000 or 10,000 miles?

All of these questions are pertinent to the answer.

So I say Synth, 9 MM, 10,000 and the one in the wind will cool down to ambient temperature faster.

 

[ruffdog]

Just put fuel treatment in both cans and be done with it. Sometimes too much time is spent thinking rather than just doing the task. And BTW, leaving cans of fuel out in the weather is just asking for problems.

^^agree^^ How do you turn summer fuel into winter fuel....you treat it with a anti gelling treatment. That is what the fuel supplier's do too.

 

[Gary Fowler]

What cools faster: A spoonful of hot soup, or a spoonful of hot soup that you blow on?

That is irrelevant to a can of fuel. You cool liquids like soup by blowing to cause evaporative cooling. A fuel can wont have liquid on it to evaporate so wind chill is not a factor. Ambient temperature is the same so gelling will occur the same time on both fuel cans as long as all other factors are relevant (sun, amount of fuel, etc)

 

[Gary Fowler]

^^agree^^ How do you turn summer fuel into winter fuel....you treat it with a anti gelling treatment. That is what the fuel supplier's do too.

Or Rather the fuel suppliers just add some kerosene or other light oil to the summer grade diesel so it lowers the gel point. I don't think they add any expensive anti-gelling solution like one buys at service stations.

 

[4570Man]

I think the wind will cool the can faster. I also think despite having no heat the shed might be a little warmer. I usually leave a case of bottled water at my wood shed. Left unprotected it’ll freeze in the winter. There’s an old oven there. If I leave the water inside the oven it doesn’t usually freeze. And it gets colder at night so the unprotected can isn’t getting any heat from the sun.

 

[ruffdog]

Or Rather the fuel suppliers just add some kerosene or other light oil to the summer grade diesel so it lowers the gel point. I don't think they add any expensive anti-gelling solution like one buys at service stations.

I called a local supplier and they said they only treat the fuel UNLESS the customer requests a blend for a delivery.

 

[oosik]

I was in AK from 1960( the good years ) til 1982. Even the cheechakos thought they understood wind chill. The wind blows - things get cold faster. What a lot of them had to learn the hard way - riding a snow mobile has wind chill associated with it also. Lots of frost bitten noses and cheeks.

 

[LouNY]

Unfortunately most suppliers around here do exactly that,
they just add additives to reduce the waxing/gelling point,
and they only add enough for the current and short term projected temps.
The additives are actually cheaper then blending the fuel, #1 costs much more then #2.
If you desire blended fuel you will have to specify it as so and the blend ratio you want.
Some of the suppliers will not accommodate blended fuel requests.
My brother and I both have blended fuel available for winter use, mine is 40% K1
blended with #2 and a full dose of Power Serve anti-gell.
Is it over kill, possibly, have we had filter plugging and gelling issues not for a lot of years.
My last one was about 15 years ago the tractor hadn't been worked much and still was half summer and half winter fuel with additive.
Got a cold snap and storm lost power, tractor had been running for about 12 hours on the generator and all of a sudden starting
losing rpm and then quit. I am fortunate that I could call up and get another tractor brought up and drag mine out of the way
put the other on the generator.
Then start fighting with mine, poured in 5 gallons of K1, pulled the filter out blew air back through
the line from the pump to the tank, replace the filter bleed the system, then tow started it.
Only a couple of hours of work in wet cold fuel getting gloves and hands and clothes fuel soaked.

 

[ruffdog]

I know a tractor has a harder time warming up in a 40mph wind than when there is no wind. That doesn't mean it is "colder", it just means the wind takes any heat above the temperature it is outside.