Diesel Oil Question

[AndyM]

The foreign products at Walmart are not good, but imported helicopters and Lexus automobiles are.

A large company like Walmart is terrible with what is does to the competition, but computers with Microsoft Windows are superior over Macintosh.

/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Please explain the second one.

 

[gsxr1100]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( The foreign products at Walmart are not good, but imported helicopters and Lexus automobiles are.

A large company like Walmart is terrible with what is does to the competition, but computers with Microsoft Windows are superior over Macintosh.

/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Please explain the second one. )</font>

Gee, lets see for starters my car (Japan) and r/c heli (Germany) are not made in a communist country of China. Nor do I want to support any business that does and dislikes human and animal rights.

Ps. Windows is not based in China either.

Also Wal-Mart’s are not liked by many communities since it drives out all the competition (mom/pop stores…aka community people) with low-priced items (junk at most times). Nevermind the wonderful wages people get there. We had a few town/cities say not to the obtruse business and the big trucks come in daily. The people want there town as it is, good for them!

For example, our City had lots and lots of business. Now that wonderful walmart moved in 90% are gone due to the "Rollback". So our electronic places (for example) with good names and quality is gone due to Walmart. Now all you get for places to buy electronics is Wal-Mart where the good names are stuff you never heard of. Or the highest/best DVD player is $100! WOW and a wonderful selection....

There goes out tax revenue from local businesses, people’s lives and retirements are gone for people who LIVE here. It affects the people in our town. Walmart does not care about the community like the original shops in our city. I for one would (and have) paid more at our local shops to support them and at most times get a better product. But again, Wal-Mart is loved by people since price wins over quality.


Read this: Nevermind the endless video's I can find of people abusing animals over there. The vids are bad, real bad.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/walmart/

 

[AndyM]

<font color="blue"> Wal-Mart’s are not liked...since it drives out all the competition </font>

So does Microsoft! /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

<font color="blue"> For example, our City had lots and lots of business. Now that wonderful walmart moved in 90% are gone due to the "Rollback". </font>

Flint and Detroit had lots of businesses too... they are all gone because of people buying Lexuses. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

<font color="blue"> There goes out tax revenue from local businesses, people’s lives and retirements are gone for people who LIVE here. It affects the people in our town. </font>

I live 5 miles from a GM plant and 35 miles from a Chrysler plant. I bought my Cavalier because not only is it supporting my neighbors who build these cars, but it also helps all of the other businesses in the area that make everything from dashboards to door handles. The schools not only benefit from the property taxes from these factories, but also from the 5,000 GM employees who live in the immediate area.



Disclaimer: By the way, I shop at my local ACE Hardware and buy from my local lumberyard. I buy my food from the family owned grocery store. I also landscaped my yard from the nursery down the road.

Just because someone doesn't support Walmart or a communist government, it doesn't mean that person is helping their local economy from an assortment of other products they buy. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

I do not disagree with you on most of your comments, but I did want to point out some holes in some of them, just for the sake of discussion! /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

By the way, I work for an American owned manufacturing company that has shrunk from $600 million in annual sales to $260 million, and have gone from seven factories in the U.S. and Canada ten years ago to just one now. Can you guess what is the biggest reason is for our misfortunes? /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif


Now back to our regularly scheduled oil discussion! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[gsxr1100]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Wal-Mart’s are not liked...since it drives out all the competition

So does Microsoft! )</font>

Really? I did not know there where thousands upon thousands of vendors waiting to jump all over MS. ????

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( For example, our City had lots and lots of business. Now that wonderful walmart moved in 90% are gone due to the "Rollback".

Flint and Detroit had lots of businesses too... they are all gone because of people buying Lexuses. )</font> good for them, What does that tell you????? Time to step up quality here on the car end; plus Walmart is the complete opposite of it. I live here and I see what other communities are doing and NOT letting walfarts in!

There goes out tax revenue from local businesses, people’s lives and retirements are gone for people who LIVE here. It affects the people in our town.

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I live 5 miles from a GM plant and 35 miles from a Chrysler plant. I bought my Cavalier because not only is it supporting my neighbors who build these cars, but it also helps all of the other businesses in the area that make everything from dashboards to door handles. The schools not only benefit from the property taxes from these factories, but also from the 5,000 GM employees who live in the immediate area. )</font>

That is great you support GM. But in my eyes you need to engineer a quality product first. I work for UTC (UTX symbol) and there are not a lot of business that support it locally. Most is out of the USA in fact. We have over 10K people where I work and it was 13K, it is going to again (by about 2K) thanks to low cost labor.


</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Just because someone doesn't support Walmart or a communist government, it doesn't mean that person is helping their local economy from an assortment of other products they buy. )</font>

I agree, but Wal-Mart is hurting a LOT of CITIES whether people know it or want to know about it. I would support any manufacture down the road, but it can't be junk either.

 

[Soundguy]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( First off I feel like you and I have been here before and this is a loaded question, bigtime….but whatever )</font>

Naa.. this one was a bona fied -real- question. no tricks..

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( If I had to compare your fleet verse super I would take your fleet. But at the end of the day I have not used dino oils since 1994. Never have, never will; unless there numbers get to be better then a group 4 or 5.
)</font>

That's what i wanted.. your opinion.

I was looking at prices.. and the supertech is just a tad more money than the diesel valvolene. I was trying to figure out if it was going to have any benefits worth the extra dollar per quart to make it worth while on the OEM 100hr /or minimum of 1 per year drain interval, to make it worth while.

So far I've had great luck with the valvolene... ran my ex NH 1920 on it for 5 years with no detectable problems.. etc.

It's what I percieve to be a 'good' brand.. even if it is dino.. I guess I'll stick with it rather than use a questionable synthetic.

( hey.. for once I think we just had a 'normal' conversation...)

Soundguy

 

[gsxr1100]

Soundguy---Yup, I would do the same thing in your situation. The supertech “adds” are, well, need more to be desired. For the extra price, you are not getting anything more. Most times you will get more for the extra price, but there are always red hearings in live, products etc.

See, we can agree!

 

[OCDLubeman]

"It's what I percieve to be a 'good' brand.. even if it is dino.. I guess I'll stick with it rather than use a questionable synthetic."


Sound guy,

I asked the "brand difference" question recently to Butler Oil Analysis Labs. They specialize in trucks, tractors, and heavy construction equipment.

Their answer, based on a data base of hundreds of thousands of UOA's of the dozen or so oils brands (including the boutique oils) is that they see little, if any, statistical difference in oil performance between brands (assuming good maintenance practices).

Blackstone Labs state that they see little or no difference between dino oil and synthetic under "average/normal" conditions.

If you like Valvoline products, have you considered their Premium Blue, which is a step above their fleet oil? But, then again, if you are not maxing out on your OCI/use conditions, why pay more for what you don't need/use.

 

[Dargo]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Blackstone Labs state that they see little or no difference between dino oil and synthetic under "average/normal" conditions.)</font>

True, but do you know exactly when and where you will exceed "average" conditions? For example, today it is around 100 degrees. I was pushing some mud out of an area in a low spot. The tractor sank down in very, very thick boggy mud. That required full throttle, full power, in each direction over and over again with the added heat generated by using the loader to help "paddle" my way out. This flat out, as hard as it would go, operation lasted for over 1/2 an hour. I far exceeded "average" operating conditions and generated far more heat and stress than normal.

Would a regular "dino" oil held up, not began to break down, kept up the same shear factors, and not lost viscocity under those conditions? Would regular dino oil still be up to the same lubrication properties after being super heated and super stressed?

The answer in my mind is that I'm not going to bet tens of thousands of dollars that it will. For a few dollars that would be saved, why risk a lot of dollars that can be lost? Where do you cross that "good enough" line? Exactly when will you have to stress your engine and tractor to the max? Exactly when will your dino oil begin to decline in it's lubricating properties? When will the internal dynamics of your engine change and require additional lubrication? I can go on and on, but I generally think of the "average condition" being exactly that. When are you exactly "average"; never crossing the line to "non-average"?

I'd prefer to have lubrication that will handle my "non-average" situations. For better or worse, I've always been anything but "average". My equipment better be prepared for the same. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[gsxr1100]

Well for me Dargo hit it on the head...thank you for saving me the time! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

But I will give my opinion. #1 I do not take one or 2 oil testing businesses as the gospel. I use the oil data I have for my car as the gospel. #2 I do not also trust statistics since you can lie very easy on them. There are classes on this at my University I go to. #3 I also do not know how they (Bulter) defines “assuming good maintenance practices” are and #4 what performance means or defined.

Next is if Blackstone states, as you posted, “see little or no difference between dino oil and synthetic under "average/normal" conditions: I guess Blackstone knows more then all the oil manufactures and some auto makes. If that were the case, synthetic would not be making the better and better oils (and headlines) and the EPA would not have to step in and the API would be out of business.

Again, same thing here; who defines average/normal? Who uses there car in a normal environment. Is –40 F below normal? Is 110 F normal. Is driving in the city normal or on a dusty road?

To close, on one hand you say a group 1 and group 5 has no difference. So I guess a store brand generic oil in my car going for 7,500 miles (as outlined in my book) will perform the same as Redline. Not going any further since that is flat out wrong. Most dino oils will not hold up that long with a low TBN, low VI, low HTHS etc etc. Then you tell Sounguy to look at the Premium Blue while you state they is no difference in the oils.

 

[OCDLubeman]

Dargo, I couldn't agree more with you. Synthetic oils shine in extreme conditions of cold and heat, turbo chargers, extended drains, etc.. On the other hand, semi trucks are racking up millions of miles on dino oil pulling heavy loads up mountains, deserts, etc.. In fact, both Delo and delvac claim they are the "million mile oils" (before re-build).


Mike,

I have many points of agreement with you also:

I too, don't take the opinion of 2 labs as the gospel,in the same way that I don't take anecdotal opinions as the gospel. People get great and/or miserable results with all different combinations of oil choice.

I threw in the "good maintenance practices" myself. If one is to attempt to compare oils, you have to eliminate some (most) of the variables. It's simply good scientific procedure. You can't compare UOA of a new properly maintained machine to one on a beat up, neglected, mechanically unsound machine.

I also question statistics. Statistics are a scientific way to compare test results and should be peer reviewed. Dishonest people (and manufacturers) manipulate numbers all the time. Because this word scares people that don't understand the science of statistics, I should have used the word "relevant" instead. But, I can't disagree that statistics are twisted by many to "prove anything". Do indepent oil analysis labs have any reason to twist these numbers? Maybe if they are supported by an oil company.

I agree that defining "average/normal" is rough around the edges at best. Even the manufacturers don't agree. This is a decision between an "owner and his machine". Again, you have to set some parameters, rough as they might be. Operating a car in Illinois is not the same as in Siberia.

The difficulty in defining the parameters and eliminating variables is why comparing oils is almost impossible.

I have some disagreements also:

Why would you "guess" that Blackstone knows more than the all the oil companies? I didn't say that. They just summarize what real data they collect.

You stated that "I (you) use the oil data I have for my car as the gospel. " But, what do you compare it with, since you haven't used dino for many years? Whose data do you trust if you don't trust oil lab numbers. The oil manufacturer?

You mistated that I said "on one hand you say a group 1 and group 5 has no difference". And - "you state there is no difference in the oils". I think I stated that Butler Labs sees little difference between the dozen or so brands they collect hundreds of thousands of UOA data on.

"Then you tell Sounguy to look at the Premium Blue..... " Mike, you are really testing your credibility. Did you not read on to see that I also said he might not need the "extras" of the Premium Blue. If two aspirin are good for a headache, are six better?


Finally, I hope that we are all on the same page here, talking about Heavy Duty Engine Oils (CH), not passenger car oils (SM).

And, I enjoy "debating" 'til we are "blue in the face" on topics that there is no definitive answer, just opinions. Fun, fun, fun.