Diesel Oil Question

Soundguy · Jun 27, 2005

( Yup, it sounds like you agree that what I mentioned earlier is not "average" use. I mentioned running my tractor at full throttle at 100% capacity in thick boggy mud, running the hydrostadt and hydraulics constantly, for a 1/2 hour period as an example of non-average use. You posted that it "sounds average" to you. I was simply trying to verify to you that what I spoke of is definitely not "average" use )

But see.. what throws the argument a bit is you claiming that you are running it at 100% capacity. ( it does not sound like you are running at 100%.. more like 100++% )

If you really are running at 100% of rated capacity.. you aren't overloading it. Sounds like you really should be saying that i run my tractor at 100% rated output.. and then for about a half an hour here and there i push it to 125% and lug and almost stall the engine out.
Now that.. I would agree.. is not 'average' use. Simply running it at full rated power would be average use.

( if I were to overload it's rating, it's duty cycle would drop from 100% or I'd significantly shorten it's lifespan. )

IMHO.. the genset would be the weak link.. not the diesel engine. And yes.. I'd think the duty cycle would sharply ramp down from 100% to almost nothing if overload.. -IF- you could overload it. most units I see have load sensitive breakers, or at very least.. thermal breakers.. making it very very hard to electrically overload the genny head.

( When our power goes out, I want to be able to hook up everything I need; regardless if it is within the window of what my particular genset is rated. )

IMHO.. that's bad planning.. to have more electrical load than genny capability is simply asking for a failure.. and again.. i believe the failure would be on the genny head.. not the power plant.

( In an "emergency", I'll use it for anything I need, even if it's less than, or considerably over, it's rating )

Less than is fine... unused amperage load is untapped power from the engine... I use my 12.5kw pto genny to power small hand tools inthe field.. doesn't bother me at all to use it to run say.. a hand drill if i am out doing fencing.. etc.

Overlaoding it.. however.. i simply don't do. I've bene around electronics enough to know that electronics simply degrade too fast and experience phenominal failure rates under 'load over tolerance' situations. And electronics usually experience a 'knee-over' and don't come back. For example. You can overload and lug / stall an engine down and reasonable expect it to start back up once the 'stalling factor' is 'cleared' and reasonably expect it to start back up. On an electronic device like a genny head. it's quite easy to introduce an overload situation to it and simply have it give up the ghost on the spot... and not even really have exceded tolerances by much...

( I've had it hooked up to enough stuff that it ran a constant stream of black smoke out the exhaust. As you know, they don't normally do that )

I'd be very suspicious of that genny output.. if the motor was loaded down that far where it had that much undurned fuel from lugging.. I'd guess rpms were down.. that makes frequency issues, as well as power and voltage issues.

I sure wouldn't want to run any kind of sensitive electronic equipment in that situation.. Depending on the poles in the genny.. as little as a 30rpm drop on the engine can produce frequency problems that anything with a horizontal oscilator will pick up on...

Not to mention votlage problems at load.

We learned full well that you can't overload a genny and expect good performance from it on a job. We specifically learned this while trying to use a genny to power up a well on a job. The well was too uch of a load and droppe dthe votlage output onthe genny to 208vac... at startup. Numbers didn't work out right.. and the pump wouldn't start with any kind of a head or lift... just couldn't kick it over from start to run...Smokes a capacitor on the pump controller finding that out.

Like I said.. if you are running at 100% load.. I don't see a problem. If you lug down to a stall.. well.. that's just a different issue. and IMHO.. even a 'great' oil is not going to completely protect an engine that gets kicked in the 'nads' on a regular basis..

Soundguy

Soundguy · Jun 27, 2005

To add to that. If you are constantly stalling your tractor out an making it run like a scalded dog.. sounds like you really just need a bigger/more HP tractor.. really sounds like it would live longer.. for example:
running a 24 hp tractor to the very limits (125% load) and squeezing 30p out of it vs having a 30 hp tractor used at 30 hp.. ( 100% load). Really sounds like the tractor ran at proper load is going to last longer.. oil issues aside.

That's why I run a 90hp tractor to run a 10' mower.. and not a 60hp tractor... even though the 60 hp tractor could run the 10' mower... I like having a 'power cushion for 'unknown circumstances'.

Soundguy

Dargo · Jun 27, 2005

/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif See, we actually don't disagree; it's only in the semantics. Electronic items do not take any sort of priority during an emergency power outage. My output is quite "dirty" on a scope. (it is only 12kw too) I would need a newer, cleaner genset for those items. I have the one I do because I can, and have, overloaded the crap out of it on the rare occasion. I'm sort of in a delimma with tractors as well. I have about a dozen acres where my home is and around 175 acres a few miles from here. Since I don't have the desire, or indoor storage space, for two tractors (40X60 barn full, 60X60 mostly full) I had to pick one in the middle. So, I have a 50 hp tractor that gets a lot of extremely light use, and then some punishment. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

But, that's where we really don't disagree. When I said that I am very aware that I will exceed "average" use, I really meant that. Since that is the case, for me, it has worked out very well for me to use high quality equipment and maintain it with the absolute best quality maintenance items. From years of racing and other experience, I can tell you that quality equipment is rated well under what it will do if it is "really" maintained well and operated correctly.

After years and years of using other's equipment and my own equipment, I've been able to "feel" a machine's limits. Also, from having taken them apart working on them, I have a decent understanding of what is going on within my machine at any particular time. For example, in my mind, when first sitting down on a tractor and pushing down on the clutch lever, I can see the clutch lever pushing the rod into the cup of the clutch fork, the clutch fork pivoting on it's connection points with the fork holding the throw out bearing, the throw out bearing riding onto the pressure plate, and the torque tines of the pressure plate slightly flexing while applying pressure to the clutch disk and squeezing it against the flywheel. If something in that process is not performing as it should, I can feel it. You know what I mean.

I've seen guys who just don't have smooth operating skills on a backhoe even though they have 30 years experience. They constantly have their equipment break. Since you are in the business, I'm sure you've noticed that certain operators always seem to have something broken, whereas other guys seem to never break things. But, we are off of the subject with that. Anyway, when I do exceed the expected limitations of a piece of equipment, I need the best lubrication available to prevent me from paying the price of doing so. So far, with thousands of hours operating time, it's worked. Maybe it's dumb luck, or just the way I particularly will push a machine, but I've had very few machines break on me even when basically flogging them. Maybe it's the oil I use. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif Either way, it works for me. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

And, no, I'm not the kind of guy who can tear up an anvil. I have a neighbor who does that. I get to learn a lot of what "not to do" from him. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Soundguy · Jun 27, 2005

( See, we actually don't disagree; it's only in the semantics )

I can go along with that /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif.

( My output is quite "dirty" on a scope. (it is only 12kw too) I would need a newer, cleaner genset for those items )

I was figuring it might be an older unit.. or one with less regulation. my new 12.5kw unit won't even connect the output to the power outlets untill you are almost dead on voltage... In other words.. it doesn't let you 'under-voltage' items. To go along with that.. the wave form looks just as good as my house line, and holds 60hz as well as the meter can show.

( it has worked out very well for me to use high quality equipment and maintain it with the absolute best quality maintenance items )

No qualms there. I like my antiques for 'fun work'.. however when it is down to business.. my real work is done with my 2002 NH 7610s. I use NH filters, and changed oil/filters at manufacturers rec's.. or more often.

I don't use the Nh oil.. but rather use valvolene fleet oil.. which I've been happy with for a while.

I feel the NH filters are fine, as well as the valvolene oil, especially given my work loading ( mowing ) and frequency of maintenace.

I use the NH blue grease and grease after every use.

( I'm sort of in a delimma with tractors as well. I have about a dozen acres where my home is and around 175 acres a few miles from here. )

I fully understand. My house is on a few acers.. and I have a pasture a couple miles down the road.

A 30hp tractor was fine for my immediate land.. but mowing the pasture took lots of time... had to trailer the tractor down there.. load.. unload.. blah... blah.. etc.

In the end I decided a bigger tractor that could be roaded down there was the answer.

That 50hp tractor is nothing to scoff at... plenty of work to be done with 50 ponies.

( If something in that process is not performing as it should, I can feel it. You know what I mean.
)

Yep.. the feeling of the clutch.. the steering.. the vibration thru the deck plate tells me what the tractor is doing before I even look down at the gauges.

Some people used to tell me that if i wore ear plugs or ear muffs that I would miss important engine 'sounds' I smaile and tell them that All the important stuff comes right thru the operator controls...

( Since you are in the business, I'm sure you've noticed that certain operators always seem to have something broken, whereas other guys seem to never break things )

Yep.. for instance.. there are things on my tractor that just don't wear out quickly.. like my seat. My seat has one small cut in it. At work.. our seats die within a year... people put screwdrivers intheir pockets.. or other tools.. hop on the tractors and go.. and destroy the seat. They ride the clutch.. and the pedals get that worn lok after a few years.

heck.. I've caught guys not doing walkarounds on a piece of equipment. the just walk up to it cold.. start it up.. jack it to high rpm and tear off in 10 seconds.

I like to check the oil... drain the water seperators.. knock out the air filter sediment trap.. kick tires, then start it at an idle, then walk around it and look at lynch pins.. make sure the pto shields intact... look for leaks and drips once the engine is started.. etc. The i hop on and go! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Soundguy

Egon · Jun 27, 2005

buying a 2-liter bottle of Pepsi and then pouring it “down the drain”

Probably the best use for a 2- liter bottle of pop unless you need the empty for a noise suppressor! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Egon

kenmac · Jun 27, 2005

Thanks Mike. The oil test cost $12.50 per test & that is for the bottle to put the oil sample in.so not that expensive.

gsxr1100 · Jun 27, 2005

just make sure you know what you are getting tested for what amount. Example, blackstone has cheap tests but they add more and more for each result you want. So for basic test it one thing, add more $$$$ for TBN, add more for TAN, and more for soot etc.

kenmac · Jun 27, 2005

The only place in my area that I could find that test oil, is the local caterpillar dealer.They have a non profit oil testing lab where they test for (wear metals?) in the caterpillar equip. that they sell. The guy at the lab said that they have large 18 wheeler type trucks that come in all the time to have their oil checked to see it they can go longer between changes.I guess if you change the oil in an 18 wheeler every 3-4 k miles it would cost alot of money.I don't have any idea what else they check for or if they will check for the things you are talking about, but I'll askand see what happens.tbn-tan-soot is that all?
Thanks,
Ken

gsxr1100 · Jun 28, 2005

Wear numbers
Oxidation (insolubles)
Nirtration (insolubles)
**If you can have them separate test, do that; it is better the combined**
Soot
Fuel % in oil
Gycol (coolant)
Water in Oil
Vis @ 40
Vis @ 100
TBN
Calcium
Phosphorus
Zinc

For the class 8 trucks it is cheaper to have the oil tested then drain. If they get 25% more miles from oil, it is a savings. But for me this is not the only reason to test your oil. You are not utilizing the complete functionally of the tool.

getut · Jun 28, 2005

( Sorry, but I really have to disagree here. If you take a diesel engine and run it at full throttle and 100% load capacity (constantly to stall point) non-stop with the added 100% load of pop off pressure strain on hydraulics constantly, and without any movement to draw any air through the radiator other than what the fan brings through, you will have very short lived diesel engines; especially if you expect any run of the mill oil to keep up with this scenario on a continous basis.)

Boy.. I hope this one isn't true. I DO use synthetics, but I have to run my little CK20 flat out 100% for both the engine and the hydraulics to get much done. Especially the HST pop off. I hit the HST pressure bypass point regularly each and every time I use the tractor.