Diesel Oil Question

gsxr1100 · Jun 25, 2005

( I have some disagreements also:

Why would you "guess" that Blackstone knows more than the all the oil companies? I didn't say that. They just summarize what real data they collect. )

Because on there general statement (you posted) it is 100% opposite on what the auto and oil industry are heading toward.

( You stated that "I (you) use the oil data I have for my car as the gospel. " But, what do you compare it with, since you haven't used dino for many years? Whose data do you trust if you don't trust oil lab numbers. The oil manufacturer?)

Lets see, I compared it to a friends same year Lexus and same model. One with Mobil and mine. Lets say after his 5K miles the oil was much worse then my last test with over 12K miles. I also trust my oil tests since they are for the car/auto in question.

I do trust the labs but when a Lab makes a general flat-out blanket statement, think about it. The lab is only providing a service and nothing more.

( You mistated that I said "on one hand you say a group 1 and group 5 has no difference". And - "you state there is no difference in the oils". I think I stated that Butler Labs sees little difference between the dozen or so brands they collect hundreds of thousands of UOA data on. )

Since the info you posted the data and by your wording you seemed to agree. Again, there are difference in the oil, that is why there is a huge delta in price. Again, there are a lot of variables when testing oil as I am sure you are well aware of. The statement they make is worthless without the data to support it.

( "Then you tell Sounguy to look at the Premium Blue..... " Mike, you are really testing your credibility. Did you not read on to see that I also said he might not need the "extras" of the Premium Blue. If two aspirin are good for a headache, are six better? )

I do not need the extra adds???? Credibility here? Hmm, I have over 1600 post on this board and you? I have even had the same conversations (over and over) with people. And you can lead a horse to water.............

I have some oil test done in the past, do you? Based on what my friends have done and used (and tested) the add are a good thing. No my opinion, but a fact. Also I am sure thousands of others will say the same thing.

Ps. If you drink cheap booze you need six asprin. I also take 4 to 6 before my long runs out (10 to 20 milers). So yes, 6 is better then 2 and have used that much for headache. Worry more about the diesel fumes then 1200 mg of aspirin.

( Finally, I hope that we are all on the same page here, talking about Heavy Duty Engine Oils (CH), not passenger car oils (SM). )

My car oil, yes car with over 12K miles on oil has almost the same #’s as many diesel oils when new. Again, adds are good.

( I enjoy "debating" 'til we are "blue in the face" on topics that there is no definitive answer, just opinions. Fun, fun, fun. )

If you are blue in the face, take some aspirin. How many is up to you.

Soundguy · Jun 26, 2005

( On the other hand, semi trucks are racking up millions of miles on dino oil pulling heavy loads up mountains, deserts, etc.. )

I'd have to agree on that, for experience.

The GC I work for has a few mac tractors we bought as 'used and retired' milk trucks.. both long haul, and local delivery.. units are from early 80's. Both were bought with 1mil+ miles on them. We pulle done down at 1.2m and plastigauged it... bearings not worn enough to merit a teardown. That unit was bought new by the milk hauler and never had the engine down. Course.. it hold like 12g's of oil to.. that makes a big difference.

As tot he question of 'average' use/.

Doesn't 'average' use take into consideration both times of higer than normal, and lower than normal use.. and then 'averaging' them.. etc.

A tractor running full throttle to me.. um.. sounds like average use...

If an oil dies from a half hour of hard use.. i'd say it was a bad oil...

That said.. if an oil can get say.. 3500 miles.. at hard use.. and 5000 miles at light use.. then changing at 3000 miles seems to be safe all around? ( soem oils are being marketed with these claims/numbers.. etc.. )

Here's a question to further muddy the waters.. what about blended oils?

Soundguy

OCDLubeman · Jun 26, 2005

Mike, I concede to your logic. I now understand your choices.

( Because on there general statement (you posted) it is 100% opposite on what the auto and oil industry are heading toward. )

PLEASE BACK THIS UP WITH SOME REFERENCES AND DATA. Are you saying that the auto/oil industry are getting different UOA results than independant labs?

( Lets see, I compared it to a friends same year Lexus and same model. One with Mobil and mine. Lets say after his 5K miles the oil was much worse then my last test with over 12K miles. I also trust my oil tests since they are for the car/auto in question.

I do trust the labs but when a Lab makes a general flat-out blanket statement, think about it. The lab is only providing a service and nothing more. )

Your oil choice decision is based on UOAs of different oils used in different vehicles of friends (simply can't argue with this). You trust the labs (and friends) for your results, but not those of the other hundreds of thousands of vehicles they test.

( Since the info you posted the data and by your wording you seemed to agree. Again, there are difference in the oil, that is why there is a huge delta in price. Again, there are a lot of variables when testing oil as I am sure you are well aware of. The statement they make is worthless without the data to support it. )

By my wording, I stated what two independent labs concluded looking at tens of thousands of UOAs. There is big price difference between Bayer aspirin, and Walgreen aspirin, but they contain the same active ingredient and do the same job (don't read into this beyond the general idea). And, ironically, unlike the anecdotal evidence presented on web forums, the labs DO have the data to back them up.

( I have over 1600 post on this board and you? I have even had the same conversations (over and over) with people. And you can lead a horse to water............. )

Sorry, can't compete with your background posting on the net. 1600 posts does qualify one as a tribologist. And, you must be very thirsty.

( I have some oil test done in the past, do you? Based on what my friends have done and used (and tested) the add are a good thing. No my opinion, but a fact. Also I am sure thousands of others will say the same thing. )

Mike, you shouldn't go there. We do have some things in common. I manage a heavy equipment fleet. I also have one or two UOA's under my belt. But, I don't base my decisions on what my friends do. And, I am not sure at all what thousands of others will say.

( So yes, 6 is better then 2 and have used that much for headache. Worry more about the diesel fumes then 1200 mg of aspirin. )

I prefer to consider manufacturers directions when making choices.

( My car oil, yes car with over 12K miles on oil has almost the same #’s as many diesel oils when new. Again, adds are good. )

I won't argue that adds aren't good. But, PLEASE PROVE TO ME WITH REAL DATA, that the add pack in your oil is doing a better job than the add pack in some other (apples to apples) oil. Delo 400 and Delvac 1300 have quite different add packs, yet both deliver superb results. Are you implying that Amsoil without moly, is an inferior oil to Redline which touts huge amounts of moly? Both get excellent results - they are just put together different. Your "add pack" philosophy is about a big of a blanket statement as any.

( If you are blue in the face, take some aspirin. How many is up to you. )

Sorry, my bad. I should always reference my quotes. In this case, in another thread you stated turning blue in the face trying to convince others.

Dargo · Jun 26, 2005

( A tractor running full throttle to me.. um.. sounds like average use...

If an oil dies from a half hour of hard use.. i'd say it was a bad oil... )

Sorry, but I really have to disagree here. If you take a diesel engine and run it at full throttle and 100% load capacity (constantly to stall point) non-stop with the added 100% load of pop off pressure strain on hydraulics constantly, and without any movement to draw any air through the radiator other than what the fan brings through, you will have very short lived diesel engines; especially if you expect any run of the mill oil to keep up with this scenario on a continous basis.

gsxr1100 · Jun 26, 2005

I will make this short and sweet here since I am sure many are getting tired (myself) included of this age-old debate. These debates are great but too bad there are as old as a Model T car.....

#1 You or I should say, “Bulter” stated the following “Their answer, based on a data base of hundreds of thousands of UOA's of the dozen or so oils brands (including the boutique oils) is that they see little, if any, statistical difference in oil performance between brands (assuming good maintenance practices).”

#1 Answer: That is weird since many manufactures are going synthetic and everyone is jumping on the synthetic bandwagon here.But Bulter says other wise…odd

#2 you stated “Your oil choice decision is based on UOAs of different oils used in different vehicles of friends (simply can't argue with this). You trust the labs (and friends) for your results, but not those of the other hundreds of thousands of vehicles they test.”

#2 Answer: You or I should say they [Bulter] makes a (again) blanket statement and without nothing to back it up. Again, anyone that states there is no difference is flat out incorrect. My friend and I used the same labs with the same car and engines. Anyone can whine and complain about this and that but when the results are that far different (big time) it shows you (the owner) there is a difference. I even posted in on this vary forum. I had over 2.5X longer and his results were poor.

#3 Gneral answer. I do not buy Walgreen or any generic items so I will take your word on it. Also never shoped there since I have not need to. But I have friens that love generic stuff worse then the synthetic and dino debate. Again, price is a huge factor for them.

#4 I am not thirty of anything. It is called I have lots of downtime at work and home and this falls in my time with “relax time”. Some people read books, do this and that, I relax on the net until I have something real to do.

#5 If you make some test then lets see them. Also I have delt with managers at business and most times they have no say in anything being bought. If you do oil test, then test a group 3 and then a 5. Again, as I have posted up above somewhere, if you start low there is no where else to go but down. Example, if your oil has 2200 pppm of Ca and the group 5 has 3800ppm which one do you think will fight acid and clean better. Which one will last longer. Not the 2200ppm one.

#6. That is great you take manufactures direction when making choice. I do not since #1: 99.99% of them are recommendation not directions. If you where an enginner you would know all the “fluff” numbers involved when designing. And lastly most times the “directions” are there to benefit them, not you. I have even written manuals and procedures at work and they need to be dumb-down to cover the companies behind. I was amazed that I have calculated life cycles for tear downs on aircraft and the numbers are cut way down to protect them and bring the customer in for higher profits for tear-downs or aftermarket.

#7: You posted" PLEASE PROVE TO ME WITH REAL DATA..."

#7 Answer: Do a search on this topic since I have posted on this topic within my years here. Not re-inventing the wheel here nor want to say/post them same info about 252 times. Again the search functionally is a great tool when used.

#7 Answer Con't: To some Delo and Delvac 1300 are great oils. But I like VI that are above 130 to 150, HTHS above 4.0, high ZDDP, high Ca, high TBN, no ash in oil etc etc.
Redline is a great oil. Overpriced and the drain intervals are not to my liking (to short). Oh, you do not need moly for longer drains. Next, why would I spend more money on oil and get less life usage out of it; but while protecting the same?

To close, I have never turned blue in the face on anything. Most times I get people say this and that when it comes down to two things (as I have stated for years here). #1 the oil cost to much for them or #2 they do not understand the benefits.

Now when some people read this age-old debate and they will turn blue. Again, you get what you pay for in life. Do you want a good oil or a great oil. Do you wnat a public or private college education? Do you want a Ford or a Land Rover. Do you want a Mac or PC! I had to add that. Do you a craftsman or Kubota? Again, you get what you pay for here. With quality comes a higher prices and most times you are not going to find quality at every store out there. ..which is a good thing.

gsxr1100 · Jun 26, 2005

Dargo. You will like this

…”the wheels on the bus go round and round………!! LOL
/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

kenmac · Jun 26, 2005

Mike, I read on the super tech syn. bottle & just like you said , group 3. Do all of the oil companies post the group # ? the reason I ask is, I looked an a bottle of exxon super flo non syn.oil and it didn't list a group #. I changed the oil in my wife's van today. It had 1 quart syn. oil & 5 quarts dino oil for a syn blend. I have 4000 miles on the oil. I'm going to have an oil test done on the oil. As I 'm new at this I will post the results and ask your opinion good or bad as I'm trying to learn. AS high as auto. prices are ,around my house we try to drive them as long as they will run. This van has approx 135 k with no engine problems.I have changed oil every 3000 miles. I must be doing something right.I thought I would drive 4-k before chainging this time since I added a blend.

Soundguy · Jun 26, 2005

( Sorry, but I really have to disagree here. If you take a diesel engine and run it at full throttle and 100% load capacity (constantly to stall point) non-stop with the added 100% load of pop off pressure strain on hydraulics constantly, )

You are compairing a bit out of context. I'm refering to running at 100% of rated load capacity.. not loading up the pto or engine till it struggles and lugs down and dies out. Two entirely different things.

If I have a tractor with 90pto hp.. I expect it to put that out for long term.. hours .. at a time.. 10 or 12 or more.

( and without any movement to draw any air through the radiator other than what the fan brings through, you will have very short lived diesel engines )

That sinply doesn't ring true... or there would be no big diesel gensets .. anywhere..

When I was younger.. our neighborhood lost power due to a tornado.. my dad has a ww2 surplus 50kw genset.. .. thing must have been 4' x 8' it set and ran for weeks....

Counties use underground gensets for traffic lamp backup.. hospitals have genset backups.. these are all stationary power units with cooling systems designed to cool the engine at 100% of rated load.. for extended runs.

On our big municipal jobs.. we rent big cat gensets. i can assure you they only shut down on friday night and are back running monday at 6am.. and run all week continously when we are doing no-lane-closure- DOT work.. and they provide job power during the day. Cat tells us they are rated for 24/7 use.

We have stationar power units on liquid asphalt emulsion storage tanks as well as air curtains for burn pits. Our oldest power unit on an asphalt tank is older than me... runs all day once it is started up.

Our air crtain has to be active the entire time we are burning.. and that goes for the night too.. even though we are adding no more fuel to the fire past dark.. it runs for days or weeks when we are doing large DOT ROW clearings.

My guess is that continous running at full capacity ( not over capacity), and oil changes at correct intervals based on environment*, are better than stop and go usage.

(* Most of our equipment manuals shows oil changes at 100hrs use.. 50hrs use in dirty environments. That's basically an oil change a week or twice a week for 'constant' on machines. And we DO that by the book.. We have 2 'day' mechanics, and a night time 'grease and lube' tech. He goes around to the jobs at night and does the oil changes, fuel fills, and greasing before the workers get in in the morning for the single shift jobs, and services the 2 and 3 shift jobs on the fly.. This is common practice among the large contractors in this area.. night ime lube.. etc. On the cat rental stuff, you have the option of having cat maintain it for a fee.. or you maintaining it.. and tey have a guy drive by the job at least every couple days when they handle the maintenance...Like I said. We just don't have these 'short lived' engine failures you are refering to. I guess if you ran an engine at load.. for months.. or weeks.. well.. ya.. you might wear the oil out. Changing it on schedule though.. I don't see how.. unless it is plain old bad oil.. like I said earlier...

Soundguy

gsxr1100 · Jun 27, 2005

Not all oil people post the data on the oil. That to me is the tricky part and you need to do your homework. Most times the price right off the bat will tell you.

For me, the oil test is worth 10X the amount your pay for the test price. Also no one is an expert and we are all still learning. the oil test will at least if you some idea of the oil AND the wear rates on the engine. It kind of tells a story.

But to wrap this up, I would look in the book and use that as a general rule to start with. Then select an oil and go from there. Unless you need severe service intervals, shorter interval by approx 30 to 35%, I would use the normal (most likely 7,500 miles) and start there. For me a 3K mile drain is like buying a 2-liter bottle of Pepsi and then pouring it “down the drain” when only 50% is used/gone.

Dargo · Jun 27, 2005

Yup, it sounds like you agree that what I mentioned earlier is not "average" use. I mentioned running my tractor at full throttle at 100% capacity in thick boggy mud, running the hydrostadt and hydraulics constantly, for a 1/2 hour period as an example of non-average use. You posted that it "sounds average" to you. I was simply trying to verify to you that what I spoke of is definitely not "average" use.

Also, you're in luck. I happen to own a diesel genset that was hooked up to a 5000 gallon tank and run 24/7! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif It, too, was designed to run constantly and only be shut down for scheduled maintenance. Aren't they great! However, if I were to overload it's rating, it's duty cycle would drop from 100% or I'd significantly shorten it's lifespan. You see, I don't have a light tower to run or anything else that would be a good equal. When our power goes out, I want to be able to hook up everything I need; regardless if it is within the window of what my particular genset is rated. I only have it for emergency use. In an "emergency", I'll use it for anything I need, even if it's less than, or considerably over, it's rating.

I've had it hooked up to enough stuff that it ran a constant stream of black smoke out the exhaust. As you know, they don't normally do that. They only do that when under a big load. Again, in an emergency, if I need to run it for 2 hours well past it's "average" load, I'm going to and I don't want to find out then that my oil failed and the engine locked up because I saved $3 on it's last oil change.

That's all. I just had to point out that some of my uses fall outside of the "average" range. I'm aware of that, and that is just how it is. Being that is the case, it just doens't seem prudent for me to save a few dollars on maintenance.

I live in a farming community, so I'm very familiar with farming equipment and their abilities and limitations. I also have a father who has spent 40 years working in the coal mines as a welder, heavy equipment operator, and a master mechanic. I have an uncle who runs our local highway department. Both of my grandfathers worked as engineers and mechanics on the railroad. For my entire life, all I've heard about is heavy equipment, how to fix heavy equipment, how to destroy heavy equipment, etc. And, (from working summers at these places when I was younger) being able to operate all of these pieces of equipment, I've had the fortunate ability to have experience on more pieces of equipment than the average person knows exists. However, they never let me "really" drive a train, nor was I ever allowed to operate the big drag line at the strip mines. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif Even my connections were not good enough to get me time on those things. Hey, but that doesn't mean I didn't try. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif