Diesel vs. heating oil

MrJoe · Jan 7, 2005

Good Day: I just got into a discussion with one of our project managers who says two electricians told him we could run a generator from the home oil tanks. Is this correct? I have been under the impression you could do this in an emergency but not all the time. Thanks, Joe

Junkman · Jan 7, 2005

You can run your tractor, and your diesel generator on Home Heating Oil (HHO) without any problems. All the problems that I read about problems with red dyed fuel or HHO is a result of poor storage, and nothing more. I have been using HHO in this home for over 20 years and the burner never even hick up'd once, nor has the tractor for the past 150 hours. I know of someone that has a new Ford Pick up that he drives exclusively on his property that is fueled by the HHO and he hasn't had any problems. Some claim that the HHO is high sulfur and that is bad. Hogwash is all I have to say about that, since the low sulfur is only required on a very small percentage of newer built diesels. I doubt that you stationary engine is one of them. Now where can I get a good deal on a 12KW diesel generator??????

cowboydoc · Jan 7, 2005

I agree with you Joe. If it was an emergency I may do it but definitely not all the time. It all depends on your dealer and your area. There is no way in the world that I would run hho in my pickup or tractor unless I had it straight from the guy delivering the fuel that it was exactly the same.

It's alot different getting your fuel from the gas station and getting from a fuel supplier. At the fuel warehouse they have every kind of fuel there. It's also mixed every which way. You are also going to get the bottom of the barrel stuff and other less desireable fuel.

Your home furnace can burn anything from kerosene to diesel with no ill effects. They will tell you that they don't but the honest ones will tell you that the hho people get the worst fuel. And that's ok because your furnace doesn't need absolutely good clean 100% in the right blend. It can take a little kerosene or dirt or biodiesel, etc. The high tech complex injectors in todays tractors and pickups are extremely tempermental.

I find it ironic that in one thread a guy is getting bashed for not using the correct fuel for his tractor and in proper containers and in this thread we're saying it's ok to use fuel from your hho barrel and fuel that was not meant to be used in a tractor or pickup.

I would make sure that your dealer knows if you are using hho in your tractor or vehicle. Let him tell you if it's ok to use or not. It's going to vary greatly from area to area.

Junkman · Jan 8, 2005

I can't hold back any longer. This information that Cowboydoc is spewing is completely wrong. Home heating oil is clean product and not the bottom of the barrel as he has indicated. If you think that home heating oil is such poor quality, then please tell me how in the world the train operators use it in the diesel locomotives? I know this as a first hand fact because I know a company that fuels these big diesel locomotives from their tank trucks every day with thousands of gallons of home heating oil. The sulfur content of home heating oil is regulated by provisions of the Federal Clean Air Act and enforced by the Federal & States Department of Environmental Protection. In fact, in the Northeast, the home heating oil that comes out of the oil depots in both Quincy MA and Bridgeport CT don't differentiate between home heating oil and standard diesel with the exception of adding the red dye. When people refer to high sulfur diesel, the sulfur content is higher than the fuel that they call low sulfur, but even the high sulfur diesel is much lower today than it was 10 or 15 years ago. Both high and low are relative terms to each other, but unless you know what the PPM's are of each, the terms are irrelevant. If you believe that a oil burner in a home isn't very particular about the cleanliness of the fuel that it burns, then you know nothing about oil burners. If you try to push dirty fuel through a oil burner, you will clog the filters, the screen behind the nozzle, and ultimately the nozzle also. You will also put soot on the cad cell blocking all light and the burner will shut down immediately. The cad cell is the safety device that detects a flame and shuts the pump down if it doesn't see a flame. The days of burning bunker-c in all but certain commercial operations are almost all gone. The furnaces of the past could handle almost any fuel, but todays modern furnaces have the same requirements of cleanliness of fuel that your tractor has. Oils are graded from 1 through 6 and the differences between them is very specific. I know of no oil dealer that would gamble his business by mixing oils today and deliver a inferior product.
Possibly the reason you believe the way you do is in the states of Iowa and Idaho all the fuel dealers are selling you the crap from the bottom of their tanks and that is why we in the Northeast must put up with the darn acid rain and pollution that you are creating! /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif
Just like you are in the cattle business and know cattle and would not appreciate me making miss statements about cattle and mad cow disease, I was in the oil delivery business and know oil, how it is handled and what goes where. Yes, there is the bottom of the tanks that has dirty oil in them, this is the nature of the product, but it isn't sold off as home heating oil. It is periodically removed and it is sold for a completely different purpose where its impurities are not a problem. An example of this use would be refuse burning facilities where a flame is directed into the chamber to continue the burn process and there are stack scrubbers that remove any contaminants that would be going up the chimney.
If you think that low sulfur fuel is the best, they this article will be of interest to you. web page

cowboydoc · Jan 8, 2005

If a home furnace is so complicated please educate me on how it even remotely compares to the complexity of a HEUI injector system? At most on a furnace you are going to have a clogged filter. The way a diesel injector system operates and the way that a furnace operates couldn't be more different.

Anyway I AM NOT SAYING that all of the fuel delivered for home heating oil is substandard. I am saying that you better let your fuel man know you want to burn the diesel you are going to use for your furnace in your tractor or vehicle. There are different grades of diesel and not all of them are particularly recommended for vehicles. Some make better furnace diesel and some make better vehicle fuel. As a "former" fuel delivery man you should know that you sure aren't going to put additives into home heating oil that you would into tractor and vehicle fuel. You are also going to be much more aware of the fuel you are delivering if it's to be used for vehicles and tractors.

If you want to bring cattle into it I'm sure as heck not going to try and sell a restaurant an old cow for their prime steaks. I'm going to sell them 2 yo steers. They're both steaks but there is a world of quality between the two. You want to tell me that the meat at Mcdonalds and BK,etc. is substandard and the bottom of the barrel I'll agree with you 100%. But then let's talk about a nice thick steak at Texas Roadhouse or another rest. that prides itself on quality. There's a difference. If the supplier knows what the customer wants then yes they probably will get that product delivered. But just like there's quality from the bottom of the barrel beef to the top of the line there certainly are major quality differences in fuel as well.

As far as getting somewhat different brands of fuel delivered for home use I completely stand by that. I'm not saying that you are getting sludge delivered. But for the most part you are not going to get premium diesel for home heating use. If you are getting premium diesel fuel for tractors and vehicles that isn't the smartest business decision you could make.

Where in the heck does that ridiculous acid rain comment come from? The population of Iowa and Idaho combined and probably all the states in between wouldn't even come to a fraction of the poplulation in New York alone. You want to talk about acid rain source look no more than the cities in your back yard. There isn't even a city with 200,000 people in Iowa or Idaho. As far as the fuel we buy the fuel for tractors and vehicles is premium #2 diesel. Right now it's $1.62. The fuel we have delivered for the shops is $1.48. There's a reason that there is a 14 cent price difference and it's not because it's a better fuel. Can you give me a valid reason why you would run premium diesel in a furnace? I don't know about you but I sure as heck want premium diesel in my tractor and vehicles but could care less for the furnace.

Where did I ever say low sulfur was the best choice? All low sulfur fuel is good for is to help with the emissions.

Anyway my last word on the subject. Let your fuel supplier know what you are going to be doing with the fuel. If you are using it for heating and tractor let your supplier know. I think it's a fantasy to honestly believe that all home heating fuel is premium diesel that you would want to burn in your tractor or truck.

Junkman · Jan 8, 2005

I have never been a medical doctor, nor have I ever been a cattle rancher, but I have done a lot of different things in my life as an entrepreneur. Possibly if I had gone to medical school, I would have been an expert on fuels like you are. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif Whenever I got involved in a business, I always made it a point to learn all about that business so I could make intelligent business decisions, rather than shoot from the hip with misinformation based on hearsay. You have changed the complextion of the discussion from diesel fuel vs. home heating fuel by bringing into the discussion premium #2 diesel fuel which has additives added to it by the distributor to increase the cetane levels. Just remember, they both started off as the same base stock.

cowboydoc · Jan 8, 2005

I don't claim to be an expert Junkman. My information is not from rumors it's what I've experienced directly. Your experiences may differ. I don't comment on a subject unless I am confident of the facts and I have first hand knowledge of that information.

zekeman · Jan 8, 2005

Difference in price might be TAXES ! ??, don't want to jinx myself, but I have been using HHO since I bought my tractor, and I have talked to my fuel oil supplier and he said much the same -that it is safe to use HHO for tractor- considering this part of NY is totally AG (nearest "big" city is 70 mi away) and they have much more money invested in their tractors than I do, they all use HHO, I figure it is safe to use. Not a picture for the whole country. just whats happening in my area of the world. price in my area- HomeHeatinOil - $1.649, At the pump $2.179 , one thing that is obvious, the tax situation in NY is crazy.
CowboyDoc whats your opinion on the U.S. opening the border to Canadian beef - despite the NEW Confirmed case of BSE in Canada

Ron

MikePA · Jan 8, 2005

CowboyDoc whats your opinion on the U.S. opening the border to Canadian beef - despite the NEW Confirmed case of BSE in Canada 
No offense but instead of hijacking this thread, please see this thread about BSE. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

zekeman · Jan 8, 2005

( No offense but instead of hijacking this thread )

Mike
Not trying to "HIJACK" the tread (Does that happen on TBN ! ?) especially since I DID Talk about my Home Heating Oil experience's with my tractor in the beginning part of my reply,(guess you have to ignore that little detail), just trying to break the tensions building between Junkman & Cowboydoc when I put that in at the end.

Ron