Digging up gas lines

Bird · May 3, 2002

gas, leaking into the soil found it's way underground along side the water lines

Quite common occurrence, although that's a little farther distance than anything I encountered. I found truly scary concentrations of gas (over 20%) under a house in Arizona that had no gas service, where that had happened (it followed a water line). I found the leak out in the street about 75 feet from the house.

Darren · May 3, 2002

My experience with the one call service at least in West Virginia is that not all entities with gas lines are required by law to suscribe to the service. To get the 2" water line across the creek I did the one call and supposedly everything was marked.

The day the line was drilled in, the rig wiped out the buried phone line within minutes. Turns out the phone company didn't locate it correctly. Before I dug the trench from the meter to the end of the portion going under the creek, I called the one call service, Miss Utility, again. Nothing changed from the previous time except in talking to some of the oldtimers in the area, I heard that there was another gas line in the vicinity.

After hearing that, I hand dug the trench and eventually located a 3" gas line about 5" below where the drill stem passed.

Bird · May 3, 2002

I don't know whether it's actually getting worse than in the past or not. I had a swimming pool built in '77 and the phone company came out and marked my phone line just right, but then the backhoe got the next door neighbor's line that also ran through my yard. And the electric company sent an employee of the contractor who installed the underground electric lines. He marked them wrong, and the first bucketful with the backhoe pulled up all the electrical wires, fire flew, and a backhoe operator abandoned his backhoe in a hurry./w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif

Soundguy · May 7, 2002

Funny you mention that, When I put in my fence a couple years ago, I calle dhte no-cuts service, and they located my utilities, etc, but on the long fence line seperating mine and my neighbors property, the auger hit his telephone and cable tv line in 5 places, running down the side of my property ( about 1 foot in ).
No-cuts didn't locate anything but MY utilities.. go figure....
At least I didn't have to pay for them...

Soundguy

Charlie_Iliff · May 7, 2002

Mark:
I'm late reading this thread. Fortunately, I don't have gas lines on our place, so our incidents are all electricity, water, phone or TV cable.
re Diesel equipement working around hydrocarbons should be equiped with a positive air shutoff so the engine can't run away or ignite the leak. In many places this is a requirement when using diesel engines., I spent a lot of time working on a case where a gasoline tank truck got a large spill while pumping into an underground tank, using an onboard pump with a pto to the main engine. Although hired experts had a wonderful time arguing with each other, there seemed no doubt that the engine ran away on the gasoline fumes in the air intake system, then backfired out the intake and lit the whole works. We found that there are both original equipment and after market air flaps for intakes, but lots of problems making them automatic and foolproof. A manual flap seemed the only reliable setup, which required the operator to close the flap and shut down the engine , which also required him to know of the hazard. Merely turning the diesel off normally would not stop it, since that just turns off the fuel.
My case was 8 or 10 years ago, and I've not followed developments since then.

patrickg · May 12, 2002

Bird, Since you are an expert on the dangers of underground piping of flamables... Do you (or anyone else) have an idea of how dangerous an old crude oil/petroleum pipe (2 1/2 inch, I think) is. It has been unused for may years and has little or no liquid residue but still has enough volatile hydrocarbons to "smell." It runs across my place and due to liability the company is afraid to officially give it to me but with a wink and a nod indicate they would not care a bit if I pulled it and made fence posts out of it. I can probably pull it but was wondering about cutting it up. There is sure to be sparks a plenty just about any way I cut it; abrasive cut off, oxy-acetylene, hacksaw... I suppose I could buy a big tubing cutter.

I thought about pulling it a little bit at a time and cutting off my finished size pieces as I go. I thought that if it blew up most of it would be underground still and not throw any pieces around.

Any thoughts?

Patrick

Bird · May 12, 2002

Since you are an expert on the dangers of underground piping of flamables

Wow, sorry if I said anything to give you that idea! I just know how to find gas leaks, grade them, and tell the gas company the best place to start digging (I say start because sometimes gas has traveled along the pipe underground and it turns out the leak ain't where you thought it was.)

I don't know much about crude oil. Is the pipeline completely across your property; i.e., no open end anywhere. I would think (maybe make that a wild guess) that if there is an open end, any flammable gases would have escaped over time, but if not, the pipe cutter would seem to be the safest to me. I think the first thing I'd want to know is where the ends are. And how deep in the ground is that thing; can you pull it up without bending it beyond any usefulness?

hosejockey2002 · May 13, 2002

I'm not an expert by any means, just a dumb fireman, but I would think if you exposed the pipe and used a sawzall to cut it up you would be all right. If you used a torch or abrasive cutoff wheel you could probably get away with it, but if you can smell those hydrocarbons there is always a chance they could go BOOM!/w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif

patrickg · May 13, 2002

Bird, Haven't you figured it out yet? I just love to push the envelope when "over complimenting" you since you are so much fun to watch when you go into your "Jimmy Stewart" mode of disclaiming knowledge of anything while placing one foot over the other and shifting selfconsciously back and forth.

Anyway, the rural water guys found the pipe and the oil co. rep was there to mark their stuff. It was found with a large trencher. The rural water contractor bent it up so the end was above ground after backfill. I need to go to the other end of the property and dig in the bar ditch by the section line to find the other end and cut it there. I can tie on to the exposed end and pull it lengthwise, I'm told, without too much difficulty when the ground is moist. Another "source" said to put a chain around the pipe and use that to slide along the pipe to "free" it. I'm in favor of the pull it length wise method, if it will work. I could use a few hundred more feet of good pipe for fencing uses. There is a significant amount of abandoned pipe in the ground around here as it is an old oil field. Not too much evidence left above ground. I may be allowed to pull some other pipe as well, but we'll see.

Pulling it lengthwise shouldn't bend it past its elastic limit where it makes the turn and comes to the surface. I have dragged a piece I found on the surface last year. It was a few hundred feet long and I dragged it around and through gates and up and down hills, through creeks etc. It looked like a snake while I was manuevering but no permanent bending took place. One neighbor who saw me backing up all over and around through my property but couldn't see the pipe in the grass thought I was fun to watch but couldn't figure what possesed me to drive so strangely.

Patrick

Bird · May 13, 2002

/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gifSounds like an interesting project, Patrick./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif Good luck./w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif I'm sure not going to tell you that you won't have a fire or explosion, but I don't think you will. I wonder if a local gas company has a CGI (combustible gas indicator) and what they would charge to come out and check it. I'm sure they wouldn't loan it to you, and I don't know if any place rents them or not; the only one I used belonged to the company I used to work for. That would be one way of being sure.

patrickg · May 13, 2002

///I'm sure going to tell you that you won't have a fire or explosion, I don't think you will.///

Thanks Bird, I think I got the gist of your thoughts: don't bother with a "sniffer" just go ahead 'cause you practically guarantee it is safe. Thanks, I feel better now that I feel justified in using a torch.

Actually, since they left one end 3-4 ft in the air when they backfilled their trench just so I could pull it, I could fill it with water. Even if it doesn't fill completely along the entire length, the part I'm cutting will be filled. Somehow I'm not sure this is a job for my lil Kubby. Maybe my 4x4 Dodge turbo diesel in low range or the 12,000 lb winch doubled to 24,000 with a snatch block. Need to figure a way to keep the truck from going to the pipe instead of the other way 'round.

I wonder about how much lateral force applied at bumber level a Mark I Mod I standard issue wooden power pole can handle without causing problems??????? How about at ground level?

Patrick

EdKing · May 13, 2002

I wonder about how much lateral force applied at bumber level a Mark I Mod I standard issue wooden power pole can handle without causing problems??????? How about at ground level?

I would use a "deadman", bury a 6 ft log lengthwise about 6 ft in the ground with a chain attached. It is a bit of work, but easier than dodging downed power lines and explaining what happened to the electric company.

patrickg · May 13, 2002

Ed, How much dynamite do you suppose it would take to make a hole six ft deep and six feet wide in heavy moist clay?

Patrick

Dozernut · May 13, 2002

I think Ed's idea has merit. In my neck of the woods if you snap, or damage a utility pole, a ball park figure of $1,500 is quoted. That could buy new equipment for the tractor./w3tcompact/icons/cool.gif

I have used a deadman with good results, but we only put it down a couple of feet. We only made the trench a little wider than the log. You want to dig a T shaped trench and run your cable in the vertical part of the T, so the force won't pull it out of the trench. Good luck patrick!

EdKing · May 14, 2002

Ed, How much dynamite do you suppose it would take to make a hole six ft deep and six feet wide in heavy moist clay?

I take it you don't have a backhoe.

You don't have to go 6 foot deep with a 6 foot log, that's just how deadman was defined to me while I was in the Marines. You could probably go with a 3 foot log 6 inches in diameter, buried 3 feet deep. You might even try driving some long pipe or drill rod into the ground, use a couple for anchor points. Or maybe a couple of those screw in anchors the electric company uses to brace the poles.

When we dig graves, we can usually go 3 feet wide by 7 feet long by 5 1/2 feet deep in about 3 to 4 hours, unless we hit rock. And yes, that is digging by hand.

Kodiak · May 14, 2002

Why would you dig a grave by hand?

EdKing · May 14, 2002

Why would you dig a grave by hand? 

Trust me, its not by choice. It is and old country cemetary, and there are places you can't get in with a backhoe. We can't dig at all in the oldest section, as we don't have a map marking the individual graves. Even on the mapped section, we sometimes come close to other vaults. The head stones are so close in places where I barely have room to get a quad in to haul the excess dirt out.

Soundguy · May 14, 2002

You may find that surface area firction is a dit hight for that pipe, but you never know.

An idea to make it possibly less explosion prone would be to take an old towel, wet it, and wrap it into a ball, and tie with twine... make it just a bit bigger than the pipe ID.. use it as a plug, and just push it into the pipe with a shovel handle or similar device... push it just past the place you are cutting, it should provide a decent seal to isolate the section you are cuting from the rest of the pipe... add water to keep the plug expanded, etc.

Soundguy

rf33 · May 14, 2002

You may find that surface area firction is a dit hight for that pipe, but you never know

Soundguy, I think that your keyboard might have been broken when you typed this one??/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Soundguy · May 14, 2002

Good grief!... I don't understand it. I've seen this happen a few times now. I still had this page saved in my browsers 'back feature', and those spelling mistakes arent there! I find this very odd. Problems in posting?

Soundguy

""You may find that surface area firction is a dit hight for that pipe, but you never know

Soundguy, I think that your keyboard might have been broken when you typed this one?? ""