normde2001
Elite Member
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2002
- Messages
- 4,163
Why do you need "top and tilt"? Just get yourself a boxblade and go to work. Assuming you have right side adjustable lower link, adjust for a crown.
Dirt/Gravel Driveway Major Maintenance
- Thread starter flyer
- Start date
- Views: 17752
normde2001 - I don't know that I need a top and tilt ... just what a few people have said on the forums. I like to hear what you have said though, cuz that'll save me bucks! thanks!
daTeacha - I don't know the exact composition of the soil on the shoulder, but I can tell you grass (more like brush) grows there, and it's fairly level, so I would assume not much plow wash. I can tell you it's dirt and not something like sandstone or shale ... if it's anything like my lawn or the woods, i'de say pretty good soil until 6-12 iches where you start to hit larger and larger stones. It seems that through a combination of car's compressing the driveway and the rain wash, the crown and wheel ruts have diminshed below the shoulder line, but not much squishing, although there is some of that in certain places where we've had to avoid huge ruts caused by rainwater which has pushed the cars very close to the shoulder in very wet conditions ...
daTeacha - I don't know the exact composition of the soil on the shoulder, but I can tell you grass (more like brush) grows there, and it's fairly level, so I would assume not much plow wash. I can tell you it's dirt and not something like sandstone or shale ... if it's anything like my lawn or the woods, i'de say pretty good soil until 6-12 iches where you start to hit larger and larger stones. It seems that through a combination of car's compressing the driveway and the rain wash, the crown and wheel ruts have diminshed below the shoulder line, but not much squishing, although there is some of that in certain places where we've had to avoid huge ruts caused by rainwater which has pushed the cars very close to the shoulder in very wet conditions ...
KentT
Elite Member
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2005
- Messages
- 2,928
- Location
- Sevierville, TN
- Tractor
- 1993 Power Trac 1430 w/Kubota diesel engine
It may sound like blasphemy, but if your driveway is as long as it sounds and as bad as it sounds, you my want to consider hiring someone with a real road-grader to fix it for you. Then, you could maintain it with a rear blade and a landscape rake.
A real road-grader, especially if it has rippers, can cut off the small banks that have built up, ditch it and slope it as needed, and put a good crown on it. They can do in one day what would literally take weeks with a boxblade or something similar. And, you could likely get it done by a pro for not a whole lot more than a good boxblade would cost you...
IMO, there's some jobs so big they're just not practical to do with a CUT or SCUT... As I get older, I'm beginning to learn my limits and the limits of my equipment.
A real road-grader, especially if it has rippers, can cut off the small banks that have built up, ditch it and slope it as needed, and put a good crown on it. They can do in one day what would literally take weeks with a boxblade or something similar. And, you could likely get it done by a pro for not a whole lot more than a good boxblade would cost you...
IMO, there's some jobs so big they're just not practical to do with a CUT or SCUT... As I get older, I'm beginning to learn my limits and the limits of my equipment.
MarkV
Super Member
- Joined
- Apr 7, 2000
- Messages
- 5,636
- Location
- Cedartown, Ga and N. Ga mountains
- Tractor
- 1998 Kubota B21, 2005 Kubota L39
I am with KentT and think you need to bring a grader or small dozer with a 6 way blade in. Let them cut the edges and create ditches without disturbing the hard packed road base. The spoils from the sides will build the crown and get the water into the ditches. You may even need to add a culvert or two in strategic places to get the water out of the ditches if there is no where for it to run out on the high side.
Personally I find the boxblade a better tool for the road surface but not very good for maintaining the ditches. Once you rework the edges a lot of that disturbed soil is going to try and fill the ditches in and start the problem over. Where the road meets the drive gravel would be my choice to bring it up. I would be afraid that fresh soil or clay in an area known to collect water will become a mud pit.
That’s going to be a lot of road to fix with limited equipment. Save the money from the T&T to bring in the right equipment and start buying as much gravel as you can. Good luck.
MarkV
Personally I find the boxblade a better tool for the road surface but not very good for maintaining the ditches. Once you rework the edges a lot of that disturbed soil is going to try and fill the ditches in and start the problem over. Where the road meets the drive gravel would be my choice to bring it up. I would be afraid that fresh soil or clay in an area known to collect water will become a mud pit.
That’s going to be a lot of road to fix with limited equipment. Save the money from the T&T to bring in the right equipment and start buying as much gravel as you can. Good luck.
MarkV
daTeacha
Veteran Member
flyer said:
If you are considering having professional help, you might be able to cut down to the larger and larger stones and build an outstanding driveway using that as a base. Are those stones something that was imported or part of your natural soil?
I would seriously consider having someone with heavier equipement than your tractor remove the goo on top and build up from the heavier stones with maybe 2 layers of stone, ending with a top coating of something angular -- crushed as opposed to something from a gravel pit -- and then smile every time you use it. It will last longer if you can avoid using the soft white limestone commonly found on driveways around here. Get blue limestone or better yet, crushed igneous rock of some kind. There should be lots of it available in your area.
texasjohn
Super Member
As regards a top-n-tilt and your road needs.
Jumping ahead in time.... to see what you need.
Once you have a perfect road, I think you want to be able to maintain it yourself.
This means maintaining the crown, pushing the sides toward the middle so ruts don't form and smoothing occasional loads of new material.
I think that a box blade is the tool for this. Thus, you need a box blade in the end... purchase it now. My experience is that you WILL need to find a way to ADD weight (I have about 400 lbs on mine) to whatever kind of box blade you get, so plan on adding weight now.. makes a trememdous difference in cutting ability.
Given a box blade, as has been reported in numerous TBN discussions, the angle of attack between the cutting blade and the road is critical to be effective. For a long term need and a long road, I think you need a top hydraulic link... saves you much time not having to jump off and on the tractor to adjust the top link... and makes adjusting easy for setting the box blades for smoothing, cutting, moving either back or forward.
To me, it's a 50-50 decision as to whether you will need a hydraulic tilt. If money is tight and you are able to adjust the tilt manually when needed, maybe not. But, for a long road and/or if you are going to do the whole thing yourself, it would be a very handy tool (although costly if you have to add another hydraulic spool, etc.).
The rear blade, as mentioned by others, has a clear use for grading outside material back towards the crown. It's the better tool for this than the box blade. Again, this is a 50-50 decision, my opinion. The box blade CAN do the job, but rear blade is better IF you put weight on it, too, to keep it in contact with the sides and to make it cut as you desire. Again, the hydraulic top link is oh-so-handy and the hydraulic tilt while grand, is not a mandatory element.
So, priority of purchase would be:
box blade, including scarifiers
weight for box blade, incremental units, maybe 500 lbs total
DRAT! I forgot.... you need a PATS EASY CHANGE... since you are going to be swaping implements with some frequency,... do this FIRST.... so your hydraulic top link can be set to match your needs... Pats sometimes requires an adjustment to top link length... and a hydraulic top link is the perfect way to achieve this as well.
top hydraulic link
back blade (use same weights as above)
tilt hydraulic link, including additonal spool, if you don't have one already
Now, personal preference, pride, time, ability, etc. set in.
Myself, I'm retired, thus have time available to do tractor work and have a preference to do it when I can and the equipment is capable, rather than hire it. I'd rather put money into having the tools although I totally agree that hiring it done the first time clearly would save time and get you set for simply maintaining the road.
To me, if you are going to do all the work yourself, I think you need everything including the back blade... the hydraulic tilt remains an optional choice to be decided by existing tractor hydraulics and total cost versus $$ available. If you are going to be doing any additonal work, such as leveling a pad, etc... this could swing the decision to include the hydraulic tilt as well.
That's my $.02....
Jumping ahead in time.... to see what you need.
Once you have a perfect road, I think you want to be able to maintain it yourself.
This means maintaining the crown, pushing the sides toward the middle so ruts don't form and smoothing occasional loads of new material.
I think that a box blade is the tool for this. Thus, you need a box blade in the end... purchase it now. My experience is that you WILL need to find a way to ADD weight (I have about 400 lbs on mine) to whatever kind of box blade you get, so plan on adding weight now.. makes a trememdous difference in cutting ability.
Given a box blade, as has been reported in numerous TBN discussions, the angle of attack between the cutting blade and the road is critical to be effective. For a long term need and a long road, I think you need a top hydraulic link... saves you much time not having to jump off and on the tractor to adjust the top link... and makes adjusting easy for setting the box blades for smoothing, cutting, moving either back or forward.
To me, it's a 50-50 decision as to whether you will need a hydraulic tilt. If money is tight and you are able to adjust the tilt manually when needed, maybe not. But, for a long road and/or if you are going to do the whole thing yourself, it would be a very handy tool (although costly if you have to add another hydraulic spool, etc.).
The rear blade, as mentioned by others, has a clear use for grading outside material back towards the crown. It's the better tool for this than the box blade. Again, this is a 50-50 decision, my opinion. The box blade CAN do the job, but rear blade is better IF you put weight on it, too, to keep it in contact with the sides and to make it cut as you desire. Again, the hydraulic top link is oh-so-handy and the hydraulic tilt while grand, is not a mandatory element.
So, priority of purchase would be:
box blade, including scarifiers
weight for box blade, incremental units, maybe 500 lbs total
DRAT! I forgot.... you need a PATS EASY CHANGE... since you are going to be swaping implements with some frequency,... do this FIRST.... so your hydraulic top link can be set to match your needs... Pats sometimes requires an adjustment to top link length... and a hydraulic top link is the perfect way to achieve this as well.
top hydraulic link
back blade (use same weights as above)
tilt hydraulic link, including additonal spool, if you don't have one already
Now, personal preference, pride, time, ability, etc. set in.
Myself, I'm retired, thus have time available to do tractor work and have a preference to do it when I can and the equipment is capable, rather than hire it. I'd rather put money into having the tools although I totally agree that hiring it done the first time clearly would save time and get you set for simply maintaining the road.
To me, if you are going to do all the work yourself, I think you need everything including the back blade... the hydraulic tilt remains an optional choice to be decided by existing tractor hydraulics and total cost versus $$ available. If you are going to be doing any additonal work, such as leveling a pad, etc... this could swing the decision to include the hydraulic tilt as well.
That's my $.02....
Toiyabe
Silver Member
When you buy gravel, try to get the good stuff. Some of the pits in central NY have a lot of shale, which breaks down very quickly. As I recollect, the limestone in the area is pretty good. Might be good to ask for a material that meets NYSDOT specifications for use as a road base. You can go higher on the fines content than the DOT allows (up to 15% is OK if you aren't going to pave over it), but the soundness of the aggregate is something I would be concerned with in that area.
texasjohn said:
texasjohn - Great info ... thanks! Couple of follow-up questions, which will reveal my newbie-ness, but oh well.
What's are the main effects of the angle of attack of the blade? I was thinking the angle of attack would be relatively set given its 3 dimensional shape (eg, scarafiers in front would set the depth of cut and the back blade would follow at about the same level) ... obviously i'm wrong! I obviously have never used a box blade before, so i'll follow with this: say the scarafiers dig 3" down, then redeposits the material after passing. Yet, my potholes are 4" down: i need to dig another inch or two. I assume I can go back and make a second pass and dig deeper, but after the passes, is there going to be less material than i started? Maybe i just need to try it and learn by doing (always the best way in my mind!) ...
texasjohn
Super Member
First, you are right... trial and experience is a good teacher.
I'll try to answer your question as follows:
Scarifier shanks typically have several holes in them so that they can be set at several different depths... all the way from out of the dirt to maybe 5 inches down. It depends on the hp of your tractor, number of shanks and the material you are digging into as to what the result is.
Now, the back of the box blade has one blade facing forward and one backward and is kinda like a backwards and forwards facing "C " back to back. Except the point of the C on the bottom is not curved up... it will dig into the ground. However, this digging action will ONLY occur if it actually is tipped to engage the ground. Think about what happens with a wood chisel and different angles against the wood. With the top link made short, the back end of the box lifts up and the leading edge of the front blade will cut down into the material. On the other hand, if you were to back up with it set this way, the rear blade is tipped up and held away from the ground by the front blade and the forward blade slides since the C is not cutting into the material.
Now, think about making the top link exactly the right length so that both the front and back blades are touching the ground. This setting will give a smoothing action and the blade will cut ONLY stuff that happens to rise up significantly above the general level of the hard material you are going over.
The point is, the angle of the front and rear blades is key to getting a cutting... or smoothing action... going forward or back. The scarifiers simply cut gouges in the ground... loosening the ground enough that the forward facing blade can cut down into the material. The angle that actually works best changes with many factors... thus, it is oh-so-handy to be able to adjust this angle from the seat using a hydraulic top link.
I wish I had photos... makes explaining much easier... maybe a buddy of yours has a box blade and you can get him to show you how it works.
I'll try to answer your question as follows:
Scarifier shanks typically have several holes in them so that they can be set at several different depths... all the way from out of the dirt to maybe 5 inches down. It depends on the hp of your tractor, number of shanks and the material you are digging into as to what the result is.
Now, the back of the box blade has one blade facing forward and one backward and is kinda like a backwards and forwards facing "C " back to back. Except the point of the C on the bottom is not curved up... it will dig into the ground. However, this digging action will ONLY occur if it actually is tipped to engage the ground. Think about what happens with a wood chisel and different angles against the wood. With the top link made short, the back end of the box lifts up and the leading edge of the front blade will cut down into the material. On the other hand, if you were to back up with it set this way, the rear blade is tipped up and held away from the ground by the front blade and the forward blade slides since the C is not cutting into the material.
Now, think about making the top link exactly the right length so that both the front and back blades are touching the ground. This setting will give a smoothing action and the blade will cut ONLY stuff that happens to rise up significantly above the general level of the hard material you are going over.
The point is, the angle of the front and rear blades is key to getting a cutting... or smoothing action... going forward or back. The scarifiers simply cut gouges in the ground... loosening the ground enough that the forward facing blade can cut down into the material. The angle that actually works best changes with many factors... thus, it is oh-so-handy to be able to adjust this angle from the seat using a hydraulic top link.
I wish I had photos... makes explaining much easier... maybe a buddy of yours has a box blade and you can get him to show you how it works.
Jaybr
Gold Member
I have a similar size driveway to yours, and I just purchashed a Grademaster for maintenance. I do own a box blade, and have used it to reshape some areas of the drive, but for maintenance the Grademaster is the right tool for the job. It levels the gravel, pulls in the edges, fills potholes, and puts a slight crown in the road.
