DK 40 Starter Question

[ritcheyvs]

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Looks like I need a new relay. I believe there is an identical relay on the firewall that goes to glow plug?

Don't need that in Florida but if a relay is all of say $20 I'll go get one.

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It may be "just swapping parts" (which I normally don't recommend) but a new relay is a good thing to try. Even if the old one turns out to be OK, these are high failure items so a spare is a good thing to have in stock. With luck, a new relay will fix ya.

As noted, the start solenoid relay and stop solenoid relays are the identical ones. The glow relay is different, rated for higher current. Swapping connectors between start and stop relays is a proven diagnostic technique but, for unknown reasons, some marginal relays function OK in one circuit but not in the other.

The +12v signal to that start relay coil comes directly from the key switch, which is also a common problem item. If the switch is the problem a few shots nod WD40 in the key hole may restore function. The ground path for the relay coil is through the cruise module, which only completes the ground path if it sees transmission in neutral and PTO off. The cruise module itself may be bad, the PTO-off signal could be bad, or the potentiometer that indicates gear range (L-N-M-N-H) could be bad or out of rig. I think one owner (in frustration) bypassed these safetys by rigging a permanent ground jumper to the ground side of the start relay coil.

 

[Kioti Paul]

As noted, the start solenoid relay and stop solenoid relays are the identical ones. The glow relay is different, rated for higher current. Swapping connectors between start and stop relays is a proven diagnostic technique but, for some unknown reason, some marginal relays function OK in one circuit but not in the other.

I am just curious how you found that the starter relay and the glow plug relay have different current carrying capacity? In my parts manual, all 3 relays show to be the same part number...(they are also all labelled "Glow Relay") On my tractor all 3 relays have the same connector size & configuration, so all 3 harness plugs will plug into any of the relays, and the wires are the same gauge in each of the plugs.

If the glow plug relay can carry higher current, there is no reason it could not substitute for the starter and/or stop relay,,, in fact it would (probably) last longer in these positions as it would be less 'strained'.

Also, I just noticed the "Kioti knowledge site" link (at the bottom of your "equipment list") I visited the site, & it is fantastic!! If somehow you could just make that link more prominent, it would surely help a lot of people with diagnostics. Now that I've found it, I will keep it marked. Thanks!! that is obviously a LOT of work you have gone through.

 

[fried1765]

To each his own. Full disclosure, FWIW, I owned a independent foreign auto repair and sales shop for the better part of 10 years. In that time I was a selling dealer for Interstate batteries. I have dealt with all kinds of batteries for all kinds of equipment and currently own Interstate as original equipment in the following: 1 in my DK-40, 1 in my Kioti UTV, 1 in my Suzuki ATV, 2 in my Mako boat, 1 in my Pro-Z, 1 in each of 3 Toyota SUVs, 1 in Honda CRV, 1 in Briggs 20kW propane generator,1 in Kohler 14kW propane generator, 1 in Dr. trimmer/mower and 1 in Dr. field/brush mower, 1 in my Husky 333t AWD mower. I might have forgotten to list something in all the confusion, but I rarely have ANY battery issues with any of the above, with the possible exception of when one has reached it's useful life expectancy. Most of the above are lead acid, and a number of them are AGM.
I do get, and I didn't even know this until I ran into the Interstate distributor, a discount for having been a former dealer. I closed my shop in 1987 and have been buying batteries since then, but only found out about the discount fairly recently, say 5 years ago. Nonetheless, I also found out they sell blems, marked as such with a shorter warranty, to anyone who chooses to save money.

My point in the above statement is that a lot of companies similar to Interstate make a great product for a certain price point. My professional and consumer experience is that they deserve better than a random 'overpriced' label with no data to support the comment.
Buy what one likes, it makes no difference to my bottom line. Just don't brand slam without evidence to be credible.

OK..... here is some evidence!
Interstate battery for Cadillac, bought (more expensive than others) in USA, failed while in Canada at 35 months old.
Went to THREE Canadian Interstate sellers for replacement.
ALL THREE had recently DROPPED the Interstate line for warranty problems.
Fourth Interstate dealer replaced battery, (had to order it), and under "warranty" charged nearly full new price.
Nuff "evidence" for ya?
Interstate for me?
NEVER WILL HAPPEN AGAIN !!!!
"Credible"????

 

[coobie]

All good advice....except .... for the overpriced Interstate battery!

Try napa auto.They sell east penn/Deka.My last JUNK interstate batt.lasted a whopping 2 years.Never again for me.

 

[k0ua]

I am just curious how you found that the starter relay and the glow plug relay have different current carrying capacity? In my parts manual, all 3 relays show to be the same part number...(they are also all labelled "Glow Relay") On my tractor all 3 relays have the same connector size & configuration, so all 3 harness plugs will plug into any of the relays, and the wires are the same gauge in each of the plugs.

If the glow plug relay can carry higher current, there is no reason it could not substitute for the starter and/or stop relay,,, in fact it would (probably) last longer in these positions as it would be less 'strained'.

Also, I just noticed the "Kioti knowledge site" link (at the bottom of your "equipment list") I visited the site, & it is fantastic!! If somehow you could just make that link more prominent, it would surely help a lot of people with diagnostics. Now that I've found it, I will keep it marked. Thanks!! that is obviously a LOT of work you have gone through.

Yours is a different tractor I believe. They may all be the same on yours, but they are not the same on our DKxxSE series. The glow plug relay on ours is rated for 70 amps. Just bigger heftier contacts.

 

[k0ua]

Try napa auto.They sell east penn/Deka.My last JUNK interstate batt.lasted a whopping 2 years.Never again for me.

Interstingly, the original battery in my tractor was an Interstate, and was date coded 2010. I replaced it about 2 months ago. I think batteries are kind of a crap shoot. There are good and bad ones in all brands.

 

[VictorW]

Try napa auto.They sell east penn/Deka.My last JUNK interstate batt.lasted a whopping 2 years.Never again for me.

I did some checking and besides Napa having batteries by East Penn/Deka, Oreily's auto parts Super Start batteries are also made by East Penn. I don't have one of each to cut open and verify they are all the same inside though.

 

[ritcheyvs]

I am just curious how you found that the starter relay and the glow plug relay have different current carrying capacity? In my parts manual, all 3 relays show to be the same part number...(they are also all labelled "Glow Relay") On my tractor all 3 relays have the same connector size & configuration, so all 3 harness plugs will plug into any of the relays, and the wires are the same gauge in each of the plugs.

If the glow plug relay can carry higher current, there is no reason it could not substitute for the starter and/or stop relay,,, in fact it would (probably) last longer in these positions as it would be less 'strained'.

Also, I just noticed the "Kioti knowledge site" link (at the bottom of your "equipment list") I visited the site, & it is fantastic!! If somehow you could just make that link more prominent, it would surely help a lot of people with diagnostics. Now that I've found it, I will keep it marked. Thanks!! that is obviously a LOT of work you have gone through.

Like James said, Kioti has been changing the relays over the years. Previously, they use relays with only normally open (NO) contacts when that's what they needed. Later they switched to relays with NO and NC contacts for all applications even when only one set of contacts had a function. On my 2006 DK45s the glow relay contacts are rated for more current than the start and stop relays. I suspect the engineers spec'ed the cheapest relay that would do the job but later the logisticians determined that common parts saved more money than some cheaper relays. To answer your question, there is nothing wrong with using a relay with a higher contact current rating, at least not for this application (some really high power relays need higher current to keep the contacts clean). The glow plugs probably pull close to 40 amps for, maybe, a minute and about 50% more initially. The stop relay only passes 25 amps for one second (until the hold coil can keep the plunger retracted). These relays generally have the ratings and pinouts printed right on the plastic case.

I started that web site when I had much more energy and time. I haven't added to it in a couple of years. It's something of an embarrassment that it is so incomplete. Still, there is some good information there that can help some folks. Also, since Kioti (and everyone else) has gone to electronic Tier IV engines; I don't know anything about those (and don't really want to).

 

[Kioti Paul]

Yours is a different tractor I believe. They may all be the same on yours, but they are not the same on our DKxxSE series. The glow plug relay on ours is rated for 70 amps. Just bigger heftier contacts.

OOPs, you're right, I guess I just ***-u-me-d any DKxxSx would all have (basically) the same electrical systems; but I see by my parts manual, it covers many DK45 series, but no "SE" (I think the "E" is for the hydrostatic trans??) I also see the OP has a hydrostatic trans, so I guess I was giving poor advice about the relays. I do see in my service manual the contacts for my starter relay are rated 70 amps - which might be why I have 10+ years, & 1000+ hours without having relay problems.

 

[ritcheyvs]

Try napa auto.They sell east penn/Deka.My last JUNK interstate batt.lasted a whopping 2 years.Never again for me.

Batteries are a crap shoot. There are only three major automotive (starting) flooded battery manufacturers in the United States (Exide, Johnson Controls, and East Penn). There are four absorbed-glass-mat (AGM) starting battery manufacturers and there are four flooded deep cycle battery manufacturers in the United States.

But there are MANY private label "brands" made by these companies, built to private label specifications. All of these manufacturers can build a great battery or a mediocre battery, depending on the specs. Interstate Batteries, is a privately owned company that markets automotive batteries manufactured mainly by Exide Technologies and Johnson Controls.

There is plenty of variability in batteries, even within the same brand and model. But use history is a major factor. Chronic undercharging, high temperatures, and deep, prolonged discharge are all battery killers.

But you never know. My 2006 DK45s has a CarQuest NGT (AGM) battery that was in the tractor when I bought it in 2009 and is probably original (2006). Even though that battery has gone dead several times, it still takes a charge and comes back to life. I have read that the newer AGM and Gel batteries may not be as good, but that's rumor.

As far as I know there is no reliable rating for batteries, especially private label models. Consumer Reports ratings may rate a certain brand/model very high for one size (like Group 65) and poor for another size. The same size and model (like Diehard, for example) may be made by different companies from time to time. The situation is as bad as buying a mattress. Just guessing, a battery with the maufacturer's label (like East Penn) may be more consistent than a private label but my old CarQuest (a private label) has been good too.