Oil & Fuel dk45s injector pump problems at 500 hrs

[ritcheyvs]

Thanks for update. I'll be interested to learn if you find any local repair capability or are forced to buy new IP from Kioti. One cheery note, the exact same IP costs about $500 more as a Kubota part (which makes me wonder if it's available for even less from someone else).

The only other advice I'd offer is to get and wear nitrile gloves when working on Diesel engines. Harbor Freight has them on sale for $4 for a box of 100. I find Diesel soot hard to get off your skin so the gloves make cleanup lots easier.

 

[sherrym]

Thanks for update. I'll be interested to learn if you find any local repair capability or are forced to buy new IP from Kioti. One cheery note, the exact same IP costs about $500 more as a Kubota part (which makes me wonder if it's available for even less from someone else).

The only other advice I'd offer is to get and wear nitrile gloves when working on Diesel engines.
Harbor Freight has them on sale for $4 for a box of 100. I find Diesel soot hard to get off your skin so the gloves make cleanup lots easier.

Pulled IP two days ago and it was stuck in full stop position. Turned it upside down and rack moved free several times then stuck in full on position. When looking at rack teeth exposed, I found a very thin piece of metal that looked the size and shape of one of the control gear teeth stuck on rack teeth. So your analysis of the problem was correct Scott, thanks again for all the help.

Question: The instructions for IP removal said to remove the overflow line after the high pressure injection lines where removed. I could not see where this had anything to do with removing the IP so did not remove overflow line. Do you know why this is part of removal instructions and should we go ahead a remove it. Just wondered if it would have something to do with air in lines later?

Covered the tops of injector where line came off with masking tape so no dirt would get in until get pump repaired or replaced (dont know yet). Covered where IP came out with two sheets of wax paper pushed over studs to keep dirt out and hand tightened other parts back on to keep dirt out. Also have ends of high pressure lines covered with a finger cot to keep them clean. Was very careful to keep everything as clean as possible when removing and just hoping it is not the SS pushing too hard that is causing teeth to break. A new post about a CK25 IP said he used a bobcat pump this time after two IP failures using pumps from kioti. So might try to get inf. on that.

The metal tag on my pump has a Doowon logo and says licensed by zexel in fine print at bottom of tag. After internet research, it looks like bosch does work with Doowon just not sure to what capacity.

The repair shop said they fixed quite a few like mine but only with three valves not four. Said they only replaced the ones that were broke and did somekind of magnifing thing to check for broken teeth on others. They only get the whole value unit/assembly not individual parts. So if only control gear teeth and/or control rack teeth are broke they cannot just replace that part only. So not sure if should trust the fix if only one or two control gears would be broke and the others would be left in pump? They also clean and calibrate after repair.

thanks

 

[ritcheyvs]

Sounds like broken gear teeth all right. Even if rack never jammed again the broken gear could slip a cog which could rob power or could prevent shutdown. And another jam at high power would be really bad.

Question: The instructions for IP removal said to remove the overflow line after the high pressure injection lines where removed. I could not see where this had anything to do with removing the IP so did not remove overflow line. Do you know why this is part of removal instructions and should we go ahead a remove it. Just wondered if it would have something to do with air in lines later?

I can't see why that line should be removed. You'll need to purge air after reassembly, mostly by cranking, but that's SOP. It may take a lot of cranking so don't overheat the starter and a full-up battery is good preparation.

Sounds like you took all needed precautions to keep out crud in the mean time.

The repair shop said they fixed quite a few like mine but only with three valves not four. Said they only replaced the ones that were broke and did somekind of magnifing thing to check for broken teeth on others. They only get the whole value unit/assembly not individual parts. So if only control gear teeth and/or control rack teeth are broke they cannot just replace that part only. So not sure if should trust the fix if only one or two control gears would be broke and the others would be left in pump? They also clean and calibrate after repair.

Sounds like shop worked on CK25 or CK30 IPs, like ours but with 3 cylinders/injectors. If the shop can do it for less $$ in a timely fashion, I think I'd be inclined to give them a try although I'm unclear about what parts that shop can/can't get. Will the shop give you a guarantee and how does that compare to a guarantee on a new IP? Is there a nearby Bobcat dealer who may offer a better deal? I forgot the name, but one ex-Kioti dealer who posts here now sells Bobcat.

You probably saw my post requesting data on IP failures. If I get enough inputs I'll build and post a spreadsheet. There is something wrong with these pumps or their lubrication, or their installation. I wish I knew what it is. Based on dlw1501's post, there is no guarantee that a new Kioti pump will be any better than the one you have.

 

[sherrym]

Sounds like broken gear teeth all right. Even if rack never jammed again the broken gear could slip a cog which could rob power or could prevent shutdown. And another jam at high power would be really bad.



I can't see why that line should be removed. You'll need to purge air after reassembly, mostly by cranking, but that's SOP. It may take a lot of cranking so don't overheat the starter and a full-up battery is good preparation.

Sounds like you took all needed precautions to keep out crud in the mean time.



Sounds like shop worked on CK25 or CL30 IPs, like ours but with 3 cylinders/injectors. If the shop can do it for less $$ in a timely fashion, I think I'd be inclined to give them a try although I'm unclear about what parts that shop can/can't get. Will the shop give you a guarantee and how does that compare to a guarantee on a new IP? Is there a nearby Bobcat dealer who may offer a better deal? I forgot the name, but one ex-Kioti dealer who posts here now sells Bobcat.

You probably say my post requesting data on IP failures. If I get enough inputs I'll build and post a spreadsheet. There is something wrong with these pumps or their lubrication, or their installation. I wish I knew what it is. Based on dlw1501's post, there is no guarantee that a new Kioti pump will be any better than the one you have.

We have a fuel filter on ours that you turn air chuck and hand pump on top of where filter screws on until all air is gone. The fuel filter is higher than any other part involving fuel so we were told that is all that is needed when you change filter. but I dont think it would hurt to open injector lines at injector side to finish bleeding. I agree that cranking should do it also but dont want to burn up starter.

Dont know why repair shop cant get individual parts either he just said that they get the whole piece from top at valve delivery down to tappet at bottom, said they could only order as one piece. They give one yr warrenty not sure if i ask online oem that handles kioti part how long warrenty. Would not know price until see how many are broke. Said it would take about two weeks where online oem said about one week to get from kioti. Yes I know ex-dealer you are talking about and maybe talking to him about part after see what repair shop says. The shop guy that takes information says he has never heard of a kioti and thought maybe i had a kubota. I guess being a woman doesnt help in matters like this.

Yes I saw your post and think it will be a lot of help. I plan to give info after problem is resoved. I also thought about asking dlw1501 what kind of stop solenoid he had and if bobcat uses a different type of SS that could be more gentle on rack and control gear teeth. IF bobcat uses a different SS style this could explain why their pumps are not having any problems. Need some dealers who know about this to comment. Because if SS is the problem it doesnt matter what you do you are still going to have the same problem unless gears are made to hold up to SS or different SS is used that is not as violent in action. I would think Bosch/Kioti engineers would want to look into this so it would not look so bad on them.

Thanks

 

[farmalot]

I have the same problem with mine and am trying to fix now. Mine occured when the throttle was backed off all of the way and the engine was killed. Couldn't restart. Have you tried checking to see if the IP selenoid kicks in when you turn the key on. Its a pretty easy one person check. Put hand on the selenoid when you turn on the key. You will feel a click when it checks in. I was hoping that was the problem and it was just a fuse or relay. No such luck. There also is another wire that runs to the right side of the IP which isn't getting any power even when the key is on and I'm trying to trace that out right now. Are you getting power to yours as that may be the problem.

 

[ON84]

I have a couple of questions for the Kioti dealers who help us on this forum.

How widespread is this problem? What percentage of Kiotis have this problem? What models and years?

What if anything can we (Kioti owners) do to prevent or postpone a failure?


I store our DK45S in our attached garage, and I start it every couple of weeks to keep it happy.
I'm beginning to get a little concerned. If (or rather when) this happens to me, and if it gets stuck wide open, do I put it in high gear and dump the clutch and hope it stalls and doesn't damage the house or kill someone, or just let it run till the motor seizes?

Kioti and/or Kioti dealers please provide some guidance and assistance in this regard.


Thanks.

 

[94BULLITT]

if it gets stuck wide open, do I put it in high gear and dump the clutch and hope it stalls and doesn't damage the house or kill someone, or just let it run till the motor seizes?

Kioti and/or Kioti dealers please provide some guidance and assistance in this regard.


Thanks.

If it gets stuck wide open and you can't get it to shut off stick a board or piece of plywood over the intake and it will die.

 

[ritcheyvs]

I have the same problem with mine and am trying to fix now. Mine occured when the throttle was backed off all of the way and the engine was killed. Couldn't restart. Have you tried checking to see if the IP selenoid kicks in when you turn the key on. Its a pretty easy one person check. Put hand on the selenoid when you turn on the key. You will feel a click when it checks in. I was hoping that was the problem and it was just a fuse or relay. No such luck. There also is another wire that runs to the right side of the IP which isn't getting any power even when the key is on and I'm trying to trace that out right now. Are you getting power to yours as that may be the problem.

All of the following applies to the "new" configuration where the stop solenoid (SS) is on the front of the engine.

The typical failure mode is broken teeth on the injection pump (IP) gear(s) and/or rack as shown in this post by bob42: http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...225273-injector-pump-failure.html#post2578251

Because this failure occurs during a normal engine shutdown via the SS several folks here speculate the cause is defective gear metallurgy and/or hardening resulting in brittle teeth that can be snapped off just by the force of the SS spring. FYI, the SS is spring-loaded to the shutoff position and an electrical signal to the solenoid overrides the spring when the ignition switch is in the on or start position. The solenoid should make a pretty loud click when the ignition is switched on.

After tracking this issue on TBN, I recommend the following diagnostic to confirm or disprove IP failure from broken gear teeth. Locate the cover plate on the engine block just below the IP. On the new configuration it is also the oil fill port and it looks like this: http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...230395-ck25-will-not-start-5.html#post2949091

Remove this cover plate (and linkage brackets as necessary) and look inside. on the side of the IP (visible through the uncovered hole) you should see the IP rack pin labeled #7 in this post: http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...255565-ck30-injection-pump-2.html#post2977601

Also, behind the lever with the springs (#6 in same photo) is a lever with a vertical flat face (hard to see in photo). Now, with the key off, the rack pin should be fully to the left and not touching the flat face of the "inside" lever. When you switch the key to the on position the rack pin should move to the right and rest against the inside lever (the one without the spring). If the pin doesn't move when you turn the switch, check to see if it will move by light finger pressure. If it won't move now either the IP is jammed internally or the SS (or SS guide) is somehow jammed. See parts 20 and 21 in: OEM Parts

I've seen several reports of jammed IPs and only one report of a broken SS guide so the IP is the prime suspect here.

For ON84's question, KiotiDave estimates this problem only effects 1% of tractors. But I don't know if that's 1% of the effected years (e.g. 2006) or 1% of all Kioti tractors; see: http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...jection-pump-failure-warning.html#post2981249

 

[grampa1940]

I have a CK25 2006 Kioti with 214 hours on it when the fuel injector broke and when a local tractor repair place took it apart it had chipped teeth on the gear. The local Kioti dealer and the company would provide no help except trying to sell me a new pump for over a thousand dollrs. Does anyone out there know where I can buy one that will fit that does not cost a arm and leg? Does Bobcat have one that will fit? Thanks

 

[ritcheyvs]

I have a CK25 2006 Kioti with 214 hours on it when the fuel injector broke and when a local tractor repair place took it apart it had chipped teeth on the gear. The local Kioti dealer and the company would provide no help except trying to sell me a new pump for over a thousand dollrs. Does anyone out there know where I can buy one that will fit that does not cost a arm and leg? Does Bobcat have one that will fit? Thanks

Bobcat should have an IP that fits and is a little cheaper. The Kioti IP seems to list for about $1300. See OEM Parts

You may be able to find a local Diesel service shop that can fix your current IP for much less.

Good luck and let us know what you learn.

 

[wallace]

I have a CK25 2006 Kioti with 214 hours on it when the fuel injector broke and when a local tractor repair place took it apart it had chipped teeth on the gear. The local Kioti dealer and the company would provide no help except trying to sell me a new pump for over a thousand dollrs. Does anyone out there know where I can buy one that will fit that does not cost a arm and leg? Does Bobcat have one that will fit? Thanks

$765 to your door!

 

[yoladamama]

New to the site. I have a Kioti CK25H with 80 hours and have sent tractor to local dealer with what I am pretty sure is going to be injection pump failure. Tractor is an 06 year model. Out of warranty and made the last payment on Aug 16 and the very next time I went to start it it would not start. Go figure. I'll post back with the end results and rather or not the area rep from Kioti steps up to the plate and absorbes some of the wallet pain. If it is my injection pump then theres a problem in the design. Clean tractor, fresh fuel, tank always filled after each use to prevent moisture etc etc.........
I'll update when i know more.

 

[grampa1940]

Mr. Wallace, Is this a new injector pump? Was it made for a Kioti CK25? What kind of warrenty do you give? What is your return policy? Who made the pump? Can you send a picture of the pump? Can the serial numbers/letters be read on the pump?

 

[MotorSeven]

Mr. Wallace, Is this a new injector pump? Was it made for a Kioti CK25? What kind of warrenty do you give? What is your return policy? Who made the pump? Can you send a picture of the pump? Can the serial numbers/letters be read on the pump?

Grampa give Rick Wallace a call. He knows Kioti's inside and out(sold them for years) and he can answer all your questions. $765 shipped is one heck of a good deal.

 

[ritcheyvs]

What MotorSeven said.

 

[yoladamama]

Update from previous post. Sent my Kioti ck25H to dealer and as I thought, the IP was toasted. Tractor was way out of warranty but had only 80 hours one the clock. Service manager contacted the area rep for Kioti and he stepped up to the plate and is providing a new IP free of charge with the exception of labor and transportation. Hopefully the new pump will have been produced after the run of bad IP's and will last a long time as it should. Hat's off to Kioti and the area rep.

 

[sherrym]

Grampa give Rick Wallace a call. He knows Kioti's inside and out(sold them for years) and he can answer all your questions. $765 shipped is one heck of a good deal.

Hi all,

If you have read this thread from the beginning you will see that this was a very tring and long ordeal. But it did work out for the good. I am the one that posted this thread and these are my conclusions.

1. This is one of the best tractor forums out there.
2. Scott has a lot of knowledge and without his help we would never have been able to do the fix ourselves and had a happy ending.(fixed with no problems)
3. Wallace tractor is the place to buy your new (bobcat)IP pumps from. They are a wonderful dealership that really does care about helping people. Just wish they were closer. Thanks so much rick and anthony.
4. Kioti management needs a lot of help. They not only do not know how to talk to owners with problems they act like they do not care. This will really affect any future purchase decisions.
5. Every one else on this site has been very helpful also and i really appreciate anyone who helped with this problem.
6. If you own a 2006 kioti and you shut off and tractor will not restart, do the above steps scott gave and you should be able to at least determine if it is your IP pump.

UPDATE: We ordered a new bobcat IP pump on 8-30-12 from Wallace tractor and eq. at $320.00 dollars less than what we could have purchased from kioti. We received it UPS on 9-4-12. This also happened to be the day my husband and I started working on his mom's house. It needed repairs and painting and the job took much longer than we thought.

Today 10-12-12 was the first day we had to try to put the new IP on. We started about 1:30 and finished at 5:30. This four hour job may have only needed to be a 2 hr job, but we were taking our time and making sure we didnt get any dirt in anything. After putting new pump and a new two dollar SS guide (recommended by Wallace) in, we then proceeded to put all the other parts back on. Then we bled the system using the procedure for changing the fuel filter. Before hooking back up the throttle cables we turned key to on and watched through the oil fill cover to observe the movement of the IP rack. It worked just like it is suppose to (move to right when key is in on position and to the left when key turned off). We cranked about five times for 3 to 4 seconds and nothing. We then cranked two more times about 7 to 8 seconds and it fired up. Boy were we happy. We let it idle about 5 to 10 minutes then took it for a test run and husband said everything seemed normal.

Before starting any work putting new IP pump on, we changed the oil and oil filter in case any metal in oil from broken teeth on old IP.(Wallace sent us a free bobcat oil filter with our order. I call that really nice and a dealership that understands good PR. Your the best Wallace tractor and equipment. Keep up the good work.)

Hope this will encourage anyone out there having the same problem.
Again thanks to all who have helped.

sherrym

 

[Coyote machine]

Glad to hear that the OP solved the IP problem.

A side note on Bosch IP's and Bosch in general. Having run an exclusively foreign autos repair shop for 10+ years we sold hundreds of thousands of dollars of parts, and many were made by Bosch from Western Germany. Back in the late seventies and early eighties they were the gold standard, and then some of their stuff started coming out of Brazil, and elsewhere. The quality was no longer bulletproof, and starters and other parts often were bad out of the box. I remember one time having three bum starters for one car from my supplier. I went to another vendor and was finally able to fix the problem.
And yes, Mercedes diesels were excellent machines in those days and seldom did an IP cause serious problems. IMHO just because an IP says Bosch these days doesn't mean .... anymore. It's not just Bosch either, most brands suffer from non-existent QC at the factory, and we as consumers pay big time as a result. If one is lucky enough to have an IP break under warranty jump for joy. If not, don't expect Kioti HQ to give you the time of day on this- especially so called customer service. Their job is to keep you from anyone who might be able to or want to fix a problem. Its pathetic and needs to be addressed, and so does the root cause of the IP problems. No recalls seems to be Kioti's stance - but if one looks carefully there are part number changes in the parts listings for some items like IPs. I can't say whether this is mid-series pump internal parts upgrades or what. Hopefully Kioti works with the pump manufacturer to improve the pump if it has a problem.
I strongly believe the pump parts ought to be available to the aftermarket repair industry, so we have some other choices than OEM high priced, (not necessarily improved from OEM spec) replacement pumps, etc. Otherwise we're just buying the same exact problem we're trying to solve for the second time, with NO guarantee it will outlast the warranty given by Bobcat or Kioti on the replacement part.

 

[sherrym]

Coyote machine,

I feel the exact same thing. The big diappointment I had with Bosch was that, while you could get people to talk to, they all were US auto people and claimed they could not help me with this issue even when I went to great detail to express how this was only hurting their name. I wonder if that is why you can not trace the Doowon part number back to a Zexel(Bosch owned) and or Bosch IP part number for rebuilds?

As far as Kioti, I finally was able to talk to someone higher up than the customer service girl, but he wanted all the internet information i had found on Bosch in partnership with Doowon Precision Group(the company making IP pumps). He said he was not aware of the connection and would like to see the information. I felt it was his way of saying he didnt believe me, so another reason not to do business with kioti.

As far as other companies doing the same thing, I am afraid you are probably right, but we can only hope they have better customer service and take care of their customers, or we could all start praying the manufacturing comes back to America and hope we still have enough care to make a good product.

 

[ritcheyvs]

For anyone interested in this IP issue, I started tracking information from Kioti IP posts on TBN and compiling them here:
http://kittrellcommunitywatch.dyndns.org/Kioti_IP_Data.htm

I will add/update information on that page if I see it in this forum or if I get a message from someone with new data. I might add that there are a couple recent instances where dealers intervened with Kioti and Kioti provided a free replacement IP; however the owner still paid dealer labor and transportation, which was substantial.

I think it's important to note that this problem seems to be limited to 2005-2008 models and is still relatively rare.

This exact same IP seems to be used on Mahindra, Kubota, and maybe other machines. It's a shame we can't just buy replacement gears and/or racks, which can be installed without re-calibrating the IP. I can only recommend that anyone who pays to replace their broken IP keep the old IP for parts. I suspect some TBN members would be happy to buy a gear for $100 or so if that's all they need.

As Kioti Machine said (German) Bosch IPs (and also injectors) from the 70s and 80s almost never failed. Mercedes 240D, 300D, 300TD, and 300SD cars from this era were famous for running half a million miles (or more) if serviced routinely unless abused (like overheating).