Does this planter/tiller exist?

[e.myers]

Was thinking I'd like to strip till a field of clover (say 12-18" row width tilled), and have these strips on 30 to 36" centers. This would leave a strip of about 18" of clover that is allowed to grow on. After the first till, come back in 2-3 weeks, till the same strips again. When I'm ready to seed the row, use the same device to plant the row. Once the seed starts taking off and the clover reaches maturity, come back at some point and till in (effectively cultivate) the mature clover row middles.
I think this is probably something along the lines of a no till type planter but not sure. Problem here being not planning on using any burndown chemicals to kill the clover (or other cover) before planting into it.... which is my understanding of the way typical no-till planting is done. Or maybe there is some sort of strip till or minimal till "planter".

I'm thinking that with the strips tilled that wide, I wouldn't really have a problem with competition for moisture & nutrients at the early corn stages, and I'm also thinking that by waiting to till the clover in the row middles, I'll realize a more significant N contribution about the time the corn can use it.

I'm experimenting with this for this season with a normal rototiller in my home garden. Just was thinking maybe that if it works out, I could move the idea into some field corn I'm going to be planting..... Have a nice field of crimson clover that my cows will graze down and set back, so would be nice if I could till the rows after they graze it down, then let the middles regrow....

Now, if any of this makes sense, I'd like to find the device in a one or two row planter. Haven't purchased a planter yet so figured I'd look into my options.

Anyone know of anything like this? Can anyone see any problems with the general idea.

 

[MBTRAC]

:thumbsup:Interesting concept & IMO well worth experimenting with - the variety of clover will determine the quantity & timing of N release.

Seeing you want an "organic" approach & it's somewhat of an experiment, I'd guess the aim is to keep the cost low & it simple (which rotary tiller set ups are not), though not knowing field size or hp of your tractor let's base around a c.60hp machine:

1) Source a sturdy s/h 3PL 3 bar chisel plough/frame given your 36" centres say 6-8'
2) Allow on the plough frame for multiple 18" clear spans for each non-tilled row
3) For one pass 18" tillage rows to plant the corn: use 3x evenly spaced forward mounted spring drirect drill trash chisel tynes or deep moisture seeking points to break/shatter the ground with the centre tyne set deeper than the others, followed on the second plough bar by 2x small duck foot tynes set high to invert the displaced clover, on the third bar centrally mount another single deeper set duck foot to establish/prep the drill row followed by a press wheel planter mounted on the same frame (remove or flip the planter to cultivate the remaining clover rows when required or better still if you want to maximise N retention/preserve moisture use only the front chisel tynes fitted with a home fabricated bolt on single 18" V blade/knife bar mounted across the 3 tyne row set up & set to slice the clover just belong the ground leaving the N & N rich clover root system intact.

Trust this pompts a few ideas

 

[e.myers]

I like it! Thanks for the interest. FWIW, I've never done any ploughing or planting with a tractor other than tree planting on a large scale. Have been around tractors and farm implements..... just not for "Farming" per se.

Yes, I'm wanting to do this on the cheap side.

Tractor is Kubota L4400.... 45HP, (4wd, hydrostat if that makes any difference.) Do you think it would still pull the device as you're thinking?

I generally grow crimson clover and some sort of grass mix (oats/cereal rye). I've had good success with growing the clover thus far BUT it's never quite "ready" when I need to till before planting late winter/early spring items, so would be nice to be able to let it grow on, thus how I came around to this as a possibility.

I think I'm getting the general idea here with your explanations, but I'm a greenhorn when it comes to ploughs...
Questions related to your 1,2,3 above...
1. Not sure what s/h 3PL 3 bar chisel plough/frame is. I'm thinking s/h is second hand, and best I can tell, you're saying I want a frame with 3 parallel bars that I can mount the implements you list on. Doesn't mater what's currently on the frame because I'm taking that off probably anyway (round "coulters" etc). I actually have an old disc (coulters) but both of the rows are at angles and there are only 2 rows....

When you say 3x/2x etc, you're just saying mount 3 (or 2) of the particular tyne type within the area that I will be ploughing correct? The idea being, get whatever size I need to get the job done but stay within the 18" area. When the duckfoot tynes invert the clover, is it going to move it OUT of the area that is ploughed and on top of the clover row middles? Not sure how these things work. Don't guess that matters really. If it flips the "sod" out of the way, then maybe it would be ok to plant directly while working the row for the first time.... little to no N tie-up affecting corn.... any thoughts? Was originally thinking I'd till>let sit a few weeks>come back and till again then plant. No matter, I could still use your recommeded setup once prior to planting also (without the planter).

On the undercutting device/knife, I think you are suggesting that it could be mounted on the frame (below all the other "plows"), so I wouldn't have to reconfigure anything other than attaching the knife. Depth control would place this at the correct location to sever the roots keeping the rest of the plows out of the ground.

Who makes a planter that can be "flipped" out of the way.

My heads spinning right now so let's start here....

Thanks!

 

[dusty3030]

Couldn't you just hip up the rows and plant your corn on the raised bed?

 

[Foodplot]

Intercropping with clover can be done with cereal grains (summer and winter). Although these don't address your equipment ideas, you might find them interesting reading from the agricultural perspective.
http://www.uwex.edu/ces/crops/uwforage/Kurademo.PDF
http://www.extension.iastate.edu/Publications/PM2025.pdf

 

[MBTRAC]

IMO:-

Q -Tractor is Kubota L4400.... 45HP, (4wd, hydrostat if that makes any difference.) Do you think it would still pull the device as you're thinking?
With 45hp depending on your ground conditons you may be restricted to only 2 direct drill runs - also give consideration to having your drill/cultivation spacings inline/within with your tractor wheel track (otherwise you'll be flattening your corn when cultivating the clover for the second run)]

Q: I think I'm getting the general idea here with your explanations, but I'm a greenhorn when it comes to ploughs...
Questions related to your 1,2,3 above...
1. Not sure what s/h 3PL 3 bar chisel plough/frame is. I'm thinking s/h is second hand, and best I can tell, you're saying I want a frame with 3 parallel bars that I can mount the implements you list on. Doesn't mater what's currently on the frame because I'm taking that off probably anyway (round "coulters" etc). I actually have an old disc (coulters) but both of the rows are at angles and there are only 2 rows....
Refer the attached photo's, unfortunately I don't believe your disc can be adapted

Q When you say 3x/2x etc, you're just saying mount 3 (or 2) of the particular tyne type within the area that I will be ploughing correct? The idea being, get whatever size I need to get the job done but stay within the 18" area.
:thumbsup:Right on - depending on your soil/conditions it may be possbile to have only 2 rather than 3 tynes on the 1st bar

Q When the duckfoot tynes invert the clover, is it going to move it OUT of the area that is ploughed and on top of the clover row middles? Not sure how these things work. Don't guess that matters really. If it flips the "sod" out of the way, then maybe it would be ok to plant directly while working the row for the first time....
little to no N tie-up affecting corn.... any thoughts?
Yep, that's the theory, the inverted clover will die & mulch on the corn bed releasing extra nutrients & assist retaining moisture in the bed

Q Was originally thinking I'd till>let sit a few weeks>come back and till again then plant. No matter, I could still use your recommeded setup once prior to planting also (without the planter).
Again depends on ground conditions, I understood you were looikng for a minimum till/single pass solution

Q On the undercutting device/knife, I think you are suggesting that it could be mounted on the frame (below all the other "plows"), so I wouldn't have to reconfigure anything other than attaching the knife.Depth control would place this at the correct location to sever the roots keeping the rest of the plows out of the ground.
Yes that's the theory, the 18" V knife (plasma cut/ground check plate will work with welded bolt on adapters) should be mounted across the first 2/3 heavy tyne set & depth control or rear depth wheels takes care of the rest

Q Who makes a planter that can be "flipped" out of the way.
None factory made that I'm aware, easy to adapt though with a self made hinge/locking pin arrangement

My heads spinning right now so let's start here...
Good luck, the attachment further details my initial thoughts on what to base it on.

 

[e.myers]

Dusty30/30-
Not exactly sure what you mean? A simple solution would be nice!

Foodplot-
Thanks for the links. Already read both of them. Interesting and looks like some of it applies to what I'm considering.

MBTrac-
When you say "may be limited to 2 direct drill runs, you're just saying I'd only be able to plant/ cultivate two rows at a time correct? If that's the case, no problem because it's all I'm thinking anyway. Maybe only one row at a time with offset planter/single row cultivator.

Thanks for the photos... above and beyond and certainly clears things up for me. Wasn't counting on my disc being adaptable.

"Q Was originally thinking I'd till>let sit a few weeks>come back and till again then plant. No matter, I could still use your recommeded setup once prior to planting also (without the planter).
Again depends on ground conditions, I understood you were looikng for a minimum till/single pass solution"
Minimum till and single pass sounds wonderful. Most of my soil is a sandy loam on the surface 4-6" + with a well drained sandy clay below. So, based on these soil conditions, I take it that you think I could pull this off in one pass?

Sounds like you have some experience with minimum till solutions....

From your perspective, if you think this concept could be workable, why wouldn't more people be doing it?

Well anyway, I'm liking it, if for nothing else the experiment.

Thanks Again

 

[dusty3030]

http://darrellharpenterprises.com/product-lines/harrows/hipper.html

This. Pull up your row in a bed. Plant on top. This will disk in the clover, plant corn on the raised bed.

 

[MBTRAC]

Dusty30/30-
MBTrac-
When you say "may be limited to 2 direct drill runs, you're just saying I'd only be able to plant/ cultivate two rows at a time correct? If that's the case, no problem because it's all I'm thinking anyway. Maybe only one row at a time with offset planter/single row cultivator.

Thanks for the photos... above and beyond and certainly clears things up for me. Wasn't counting on my disc being adaptable.

"Q Was originally thinking I'd till>let sit a few weeks>come back and till again then plant. No matter, I could still use your recommeded setup once prior to planting also (without the planter).
Again depends on ground conditions, I understood you were looikng for a minimum till/single pass solution"
Minimum till and single pass sounds wonderful. Most of my soil is a sandy loam on the surface 4-6" + with a well drained sandy clay below. So, based on these soil conditions, I take it that you think I could pull this off in one pass?

Your 45hp Kubota in sandy loam should be able to able to haul this easy ( one pass 2 & I would expect 3 rows easy - it's only the first 2-3 heavy tynes that are engaging any depth

Sounds like you have some experience with minimum till solutions....
Just a little a few generations + more acres than I can recall - we've just invested in another no till disc seeder @ c$ 130K for our farms (pictured) - disc coulters are fine in certain seasons/conidtions by won't provide the same crop moisture seeking options in all seasons as the machine I've described for your set up/nor will they handle heavier clovers as well

From your perspective, if you think this concept could be workable, why wouldn't more people be doing it?
Common large farming practice now for zero/minmum till approaches, still unusual to see anything on small scale hence the lack of 3PL gear readily available except in maybe Europe - Large scale farming also doesn't always lend itself to organic approaches with the vagaries of seaons & substantial capital investment ..etc often needed to be underwritten/safeguarded by the use of copious amounts of fertilizers/chemicals for more consistent germination/yields

Well anyway, I'm liking it, if for nothing else the experiment.
:thumbsup: Farming is a day to day proposition & a constant experiment, what works for someone today doesn't necessarily adapt to individual environments - we've had some pretty costly experiments over the years with new gear & the latest/greatest tractor innovations - but what you're considering is a fairly proven concept

 

[CliffordK]

I thought about something like what you're wanting a year or so ago. But, never built it.

Perhaps one could make a gang of Mantis Tiller blades, being a little less agressive than normal tiller blades.

Done right, you might be able to run your mantis tiller blades right in front of the seed drill, and it shouldn't take too much horsepower depending on the row width. I wonder if you built shields around the tiller, if you could try to convince it to keep as much dirt as possible in the row, rather than mounding it up between rows.

Last year I decided to try planting Corn and Peas together in a single row, with the idea that the peas might be able to grow up the corn. It surprised me, but neither the peas, nor the corn grew well in that row.

 

[e.myers]

Hey everyone....
Apologies for the late reply, but as you know- tis the season....
I do appreciate all the help, and it's starting to get clearer for me now.
That being said, I'm probably going to hold off on doing anything this season with a tractor mounted system. Just not enough time to shop around for the equipment I need.
Will have to scale back some to get my feet wet with the corn for this season then move on next year.
Unfortunately, back to the earthway seeder and troy built this year.
Will be back with more questions later in the year... hopefully everyone will be around then.

FWIW, Leaning towards a two row version of what "MBTRAC" has described. It seems to make the most sense as to working with what my current plans are.
Dusty. I see that that could work for me too, and might be what I end up with too in the short term. I could even just come back on top of those beds with an earthway seeder on top. Sidedress with the earthway too. Come back between the rows with the tiller later, although this wouldn't allow for undercutting. My tractor centers might also be a problem unless I can offset it some how.... Again, I need to design in some flexibility and MBTRAC's solution seems to do this well..... assuming I can get it all together.
Clifford K. I see what you're saying but, for this go round, I've got to keep this reasonably simple or I'm never going to get it DONE!
Thanks again everyone for the interest!

 

[e.myers]

Apologies for the late reply.
Dusty- That makes sense now. Actually considering going ahead and purchasing one for use this year with my troy built (between the beds that would make) and just an earthway seeder with fertilizer attachment.
Would allow me to test out some of my ideas in a hurrry.
Clifford K- That could work, but knowing me when I get too much going on, I just don't get it DONE. Maybe for a future/future project!
MBTRAC- Ok. My tractor will work.... good news.
Man. When I see that kind of equipment and think about what it costs it just blows my mind.... then there is the sheer SCALE of farming to be able to actually use that stuff. Saw a brand new HUGE enclosed cab "tractor" sitting in a field the other day burnt slam up and I'm thinking to myself, what does someone do with an expense like that when it goes up in flames? Guess you've really got to dot your eyes and cross your T's.... and here I am wonder how I'm going to till up 1/4 acre to plant some corn (ha ha). You know my family has 450 acres of land planted in pine trees right now..... part of which I'm toying with putting in pasture (once the trees are harvested next go round), so I guess I can kind of understand how it could go.... Get a couple of cows/plant a couple of acres and grow from there.... and on and on it goes. Still from where I'm sitting right now, can't imagine having a payment on one of those planters!
You've been a wealth of knowledge/help to me in thinking this through. Have been researching the parts to put it all together for next season!

Thanks!
Eddie

 

[e.myers]

Man. My memory is absolutely GONE!

 

[Halftrack]

Just to make you think a little longer. Go to Tractorhouse.com and search manufacturer "AGROTILLER" and see if that is what you are looking for. I would post a link but that is beyond my magic picture box skills. Maybe someone more adept than I can do the link or photo.

 

[CliffordK]

Just to make you think a little longer. Go to Tractorhouse.com and search manufacturer "AGROTILLER"

Now, that is COOL.
If only it trailed 3 corn planters with a fertilizer hopper.
And, if it was only a little closer to Oregon.
No price listed though.

http://www.tractorhouse.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=7550245


My question then.
By running a chain drive (I assume) in the middle, and 2 tines on each side of the drive. None of the tines overlap. Would it tend to skip the middle if being done in a single pass? I suppose many garden tillers are similar. but I usually find myself doing multiple passes in the garden.

I think I might prefer a design with the drive & bearings on the outside.



Actually,
I think I found it.
It looks like it is very similar to the Ford Multivator.
https://www.forddistributing.com/s?keywords=multivator

As well as this Italian model.
Agricultural machines Badalini Srl beyond the production of multi-row rototillers, subsoilers, rototillers and inter-row cultivators

Apparently discussed here a few years ago.
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/attachments/197237-anyone-need-nice-used-multivator.html

I still think it would be best to attach the seed drill or corn planter directly to the back of the tiller. All in one machine.

 

[OldMcDonald]

I like the idea. A couple of comments. Since you are not spray killing the clover, I would cultivate, following MBTRAC's system at #2, in advance of sowing. This way the clover would have time to die down. If it rains soon after cultivating you might find that the tilled clover is not killed off and might have to re-till before sowing.

Are your front and rear wheels lined up sufficiently that you are covering a maximum combined tyre width of the cultivated strip? If so, could you till only behind the tyres and sow into this strip as a separate operation? For instance, I have an NH45hp and my wheels cover 14.5" with a 32" space between the insides of the tyres. This gives a similar spacing to that you suggested in the OP. It would mean some accurate driving on a field scale to leave a similar 32" strip when you do the return run, but a marker tine could be fitted to give you the necessary guide.

You then need to straddle the tilled (and by now growing corn) strips when you want to till out the remaining clover. You must not run over the corn. This means having your tilling equipment set to till out two of these clover strips in one pass - the ones your tractor wheels are running on, and leave the growing corn untouched. The same frame could be used if it was wide enough. You would need to cover the two 32" or whatever width strips plus the width of the corn row. 64+15 is only 79" so quite manageable with your tractor. Even if you had left 36" strips you could still do it.

CliffordK, I sowed corn and Blackeye peas a few years ago, and had disappointing growth too. I put it down to lack of moisture in our usual Mediterannean totally dry summer. We are currently waterlogged with standing rather than flowing water and rain forecast for another 10 days. I have a bit more than 5 acres (I am semi-retired on 16 acres) that I intend to sow with the same mix this year, and cut for hay as soon as there is enough to warrant it. I have my own mower and hay turner, so just the baling to pay for. I need to clean up this area and there should be enough moisture to get sufficient growth to make the crop economic. I will try to remember to let you know the outcome.

 

[CliffordK]

I like the idea. A couple of comments. Since you are not spray killing the clover, I would cultivate,
CliffordK, I sowed corn and Blackeye peas a few years ago, and had disappointing growth too. I put it down to lack of moisture in our usual Mediterannean totally dry summer.

I may try the experiment again.
But I had some just corn, just peas, or a corn/pea mix.

The corn/pea mix seemed to fare much worse than the corn alone or peas alone.
It could be a density problem, but I think it was something else.

I was doing drip irrigation.

 

[ohdef]

Did you ever find a market or source? We've bought property that has one of these and it runs just fine but we don't need it.

 

[the whispering oaks farm]

Did you ever find a market or source? We've bought property that has one of these and it runs just fine but we don't need it.View attachment 313974

Did you ever do anything with that tiller ohdef? I would be interested in it.