Driverless Cars

[Redneck in training]

Friend of mine used to own a company that applied fertilizer for farmers. The company sent a technician with Honda four wheeler with about $ 20000 of computer and GPS instrumentation mounted on it to the field. The tech would meander through the field taking a sample based on command from the computer about every 10 yards and placing them in a magazine. All the data about location of each sample was stored on a flash card. Later on the tech gave the samples and the flash card to the lab for analysis. The results were also stored on a flash card that was given to a driver of the machine applying the fertilizer. The machine entered the field at the point where the tech started to take samples. Then it meandered steered by the GPS computer through the field (following the track of the four wheeler) applying the fertilizer based on the lab results. The flash was given to the farmer who had a combine also with GPS storing data from the yield detector also on a flash card. The harvest data was then analyzed in a computer showing the farmer how much money he put in every spot on the field versus yield from the same spot.

He sold it 20 years ago. You can guess the technology advanced significantly since then.

 

[Reg]

It will be interesting to revisit this thread in ten, or even 5 years.

Try 2 years, that is what the manufacturers are PLANNING for - and they are PUSHING the regulatory bodies on it too.

 

[Reg]

Anyone here into big ag?

I see things on machinery pete and other shows where they talk about the GPS in hte big tractors and combines, part of the 'precision ag' these days.

How automated is it? How costly?

It seems to "bottom line" cost lower than illegal immigrant labor <smirk> or they wouldn't be doing it.
It is "centimeter accurate", i.e. they can plant seeds very precisely in precisely spaced rows, know where they are and later cultivate between them as things sprout and grow.
When the yield from all that precision is added in and the errors taken out - - it is VERY worthwhile

 

[prof fate]

Some of it is as Redneck said, to apply just what the field needs in just the right places, instead of everywhere.

I've been reading up on pasture management - started thinking about haying and well, google leads you down a path. Cheaper to rotate pastures and 'stockpile' a pasture - let it grow and let the animals harvest it for ya late fall/early winter.

Among both of those topics they talk about fertilizer, how much and when to apply, yeild with none vs some vs other (manure, chemical, etc). Starts to get pretty intense. I'm at a HS or maybe less level and most of what I'm finding is college/graduate level info...

It seems to "bottom line" cost lower than illegal immigrant labor <smirk> or they wouldn't be doing it.
It is "centimeter accurate", i.e. they can plant seeds very precisely in precisely spaced rows, know where they are and later cultivate between them as things sprout and grow.
When the yield from all that precision is added in and the errors taken out - - it is VERY worthwhile

 

[quicksandfarmer]

It seems to "bottom line" cost lower than illegal immigrant labor <smirk> or they wouldn't be doing it.
It is "centimeter accurate", i.e. they can plant seeds very precisely in precisely spaced rows, know where they are and later cultivate between them as things sprout and grow.
When the yield from all that precision is added in and the errors taken out - - it is VERY worthwhile

I have been experimenting with GPS for various projects. With "differential" GPS you can easily get centimeter level accuracy and repeatability. Regular GPS is only accurate to 50 feet or so depending on conditions. The theory of differential GPS is that the error due to conditions is the same for all receivers in the same spot. So you use two receivers, one in a fixed position and the other moving around. The one in a fixed position constantly calculates its position, and since it is fixed it is able to calculate the error. The error is transmitted to the moving one, which calculates its position and applies the error. Even if they are five miles apart the accuracy is a cm or less. The equipment to do this is less than a thousand dollars.

The limiting factor is that GPS requires line of site to the satellites to work. The middle of a field is no problem. If there are buildings around, or even trees, the accuracy falls off.

There are starting to be networks of fixed stations that you can use instead of putting out your own.

 

[LouNY]

It seems to "bottom line" cost lower than illegal immigrant labor <smirk> or they wouldn't be doing it.
It is "centimeter accurate", i.e. they can plant seeds very precisely in precisely spaced rows, know where they are and later cultivate between them as things sprout and grow.
When the yield from all that precision is added in and the errors taken out - - it is VERY worthwhile

Most of the applications that I have seen for ag gps are not applications that will effect illegal immigrant labor.

It is allowing for strip tillage, where only an 6-8 inch strip is tilled for each row of a crop instead of an entire field.
The tillage equipment is run thru the field using gps, then that planter/fertilizer equipment is run thru to plant.
Very wide grain drills and planters can be used without using marker arms with no overlap or skips,
spray and fertilizer rigs can put down the correct amount without gaps and overlaps.
I have not seen or read of anyone cultivating with gps. Tillage, planting and harvest yes, but not very much with harvest.

 

[prof fate]

I wondered how that was done. Saw a few tv shows with bridges and such and they used gps to locate piers and such...never understood how they were accurate enough! thanks.

I have been experimenting with GPS for various projects. With "differential" GPS you can easily get centimeter level accuracy and repeatability. Regular GPS is only accurate to 50 feet or so depending on conditions. The theory of differential GPS is that the error due to conditions is the same for all receivers in the same spot. So you use two receivers, one in a fixed position and the other moving around. The one in a fixed position constantly calculates its position, and since it is fixed it is able to calculate the error. The error is transmitted to the moving one, which calculates its position and applies the error. Even if they are five miles apart the accuracy is a cm or less. The equipment to do this is less than a thousand dollars.

The limiting factor is that GPS requires line of site to the satellites to work. The middle of a field is no problem. If there are buildings around, or even trees, the accuracy falls off.

There are starting to be networks of fixed stations that you can use instead of putting out your own.

 

[prof fate]

Farmers need workers - some offer $15/hour and can't get anyone, so they have to 'import' them from mexico. Could be for picking/pruning - ca is so short on labor for ag that farmers are not planting fields for fear the harvest rots in the fields.

They're working a blue card concept to help the situation.

In the carolinas I think it is, hormel has hog processing plants and advertises IN mexico for workers...

Keeping cost down is one issue, but lack of labor at any price is another big one.

And farming is a very low margin with some risk (weather).

Locally I can rent out my land for $40/acre...yep, a measly $40. The math says I can grow hay and might make 200/acre, likely less. this past year was so wet there's almost a hay shortage here now - so prices are up .. but that's because many didin't get the crop in so have nothing to sell - feast or famine.

So if I can make $200/acre and have 10 acres, that's $2k a year...to get that I have to invest in cutting, raking, baling and storage space - 4-5K for used (perhaps unreliable) equipment and a hoop house.

to really do any good (business wise) I'd need what, 300 acres of hay? And with that I'll need bigger tractor, bigger new equipment..so expenses rise, now I need 400 acres...I don't have that so add in field rent and my profit drops to 150/acre... And I've not done the math on what it would take to hay that much land...it takes me 7-8 hours to mow a 10 acre field ( you can't go too fast), so 400 acres would take (cut, rake, maybe twice, then bale, then pickup, plus fertilize - so 5-6 trips per haying, 3 haying, 17 trips say...4800 hours...that's more than two full time jobs. to make 65-70k, less taxes? Yeah...no.

Thought about black oil sunflower seeds - corn picker can harvest them..high price item...or garlic does well price wise. Still searching.

Most of the applications that I have seen for ag gps are not applications that will effect illegal immigrant labor.

It is allowing for strip tillage, where only an 6-8 inch strip is tilled for each row of a crop instead of an entire field.
The tillage equipment is run thru the field using gps, then that planter/fertilizer equipment is run thru to plant.
Very wide grain drills and planters can be used without using marker arms with no overlap or skips,
spray and fertilizer rigs can put down the correct amount without gaps and overlaps.
I have not seen or read of anyone cultivating with gps. Tillage, planting and harvest yes, but not very much with harvest.

 

[Raspy]

Friend of mine used to own a company that applied fertilizer for farmers. The company sent a technician with Honda four wheeler with about $ 20000 of computer and GPS instrumentation mounted on it to the field. The tech would meander through the field taking a sample based on command from the computer about every 10 yards and placing them in a magazine. All the data about location of each sample was stored on a flash card. Later on the tech gave the samples and the flash card to the lab for analysis. The results were also stored on a flash card that was given to a driver of the machine applying the fertilizer. The machine entered the field at the point where the tech started to take samples. Then it meandered steered by the GPS computer through the field (following the track of the four wheeler) applying the fertilizer based on the lab results. The flash was given to the farmer who had a combine also with GPS storing data from the yield detector also on a flash card. The harvest data was then analyzed in a computer showing the farmer how much money he put in every spot on the field versus yield from the same spot.

Now, John Deere is developing equipment that moves through the field along the row crop lines. As it goes, cameras look at each plant along the row, over a width of about 50 rows. It can travel at about 6 MPH and as it moves, a camera looks at each plant. Then software decides if the plant is a weed or the plant they want. Then a sprayer shoots the weed with poison. Only the weeds. It can also be used to over fertilize smaller crop plants that are clustered too closely and therefore thin them out. Of course, while it's going, it can notice areas where the plants are not doing as well, record the area with GPS and help the farmer improve his irrigation or quality of soil. The promise of less labor, more productivity and less overspray of adjacent fields, as happens with crop dusting, is enormous.

 

[Raspy]

Yers ago I replaced an old gas boiler with an elec boiler. Everyone said I was nuts.
Well, 60% of the gas went up the chimney as waste heat, and elec is 100% efficient - I saw my heating bills drop by more than half. And elec they say is more costly than natural gas.

Back in auto school I was told a 6 cyl car engine's heat could heat a typical house.

Modern gas boilers run at 95% efficiency. Anything that was running at 40% (60% waste) had some serious problems as well as being an old and poor design.
Modern gas engines run at about 40% max efficiency, meaning the other 60% of the energy goes out the exhaust and through the cooling system. That just gets us to the power at the crankshaft. Then factor in the losses through the transmission and differential systems and you end up with even less to the ground. And remember too, the transmission and complete drivetrain systems are only there to adapt the engine to the requirements related to delivering the speed and torque the ground. The whole system is laughably inefficient. Some of the electric motor's biggest advantages are: they use zero energy when not producing power, for instance while coasting or waiting at a stop light, they have maximum torque at zero RPM and they don't have to be already spinning while being adapted to a stopped wheel, as with a clutch or transmission. This is why they are perfect as part of a diesel electric locomotive drive system, where an enormous load must start out from a stop. The diesel can run a generator to produce the power, and the traction motor can put the torque down from zero RPM.

In cars though, if you are only going to have an engine, you can do away with a lot of stuff by using it to drive the wheels without the generator and motor. But if you want to include batteries too, then you can devise ways to make the system more efficient overall, as in the Prius, by allowing the engine to be shut off as much as possible and to re-capture some energy with re-generation (not sure if the Prius does this). The main advantage of at least the early Prius' was that it shut the engine off, but gave you instant throttle response with an electric motor that carried things along long enough for the engine to get re-started. The main advantage was that the engine ran no more than absolutely necessary. No idling at stops, no idling on downgrades, no warm up before going into gear in the driveway, etc.

Now, the Achates opposed piston engine is being developed. It is an old idea, brought into the modern world. It is better than the typical piston engine, but not the last word on the subject.