TWINKLE_TOES
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Re: Dumb moves/airline bailout *DELETED*
Post deleted by TWINKLE_TOES
Post deleted by TWINKLE_TOES
Dumb moves
- Thread starter RPM
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Bird
Rest in Peace
Re: Dumb moves/airline bailout
Al, I tried to look at the attachment and all I could get was that the page could not be displayed. Maybe my computer?
Bird
Al, I tried to look at the attachment and all I could get was that the page could not be displayed. Maybe my computer?
Bird
TWINKLE_TOES
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Re: Dumb moves/airline bailout
Bird,
I don't think it's your computer. You did better than I. When I tried to open it my computer went to never never land. I have sent in a plea to Muhammad to nuke it.
I'll try again when I get some help. It started as a power point file which can't be accepted so I converted it to an html and it appeared to work/w3tcompact/icons/blush.gif
It was a slide show of the economics of the airline financial situation.
Maybe I should email it to Harv and let him try/w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif
Sorry for the inconvenience/w3tcompact/icons/blush.gif Darn new fangled typewriter.
Al
Bird,
I don't think it's your computer. You did better than I. When I tried to open it my computer went to never never land. I have sent in a plea to Muhammad to nuke it.
I'll try again when I get some help. It started as a power point file which can't be accepted so I converted it to an html and it appeared to work/w3tcompact/icons/blush.gif
It was a slide show of the economics of the airline financial situation.
Maybe I should email it to Harv and let him try/w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif
Sorry for the inconvenience/w3tcompact/icons/blush.gif Darn new fangled typewriter.
Al
Bird
Rest in Peace
Re: Dumb moves/airline bailout
No problem, Al. It's just that when this computer does weird things, I never know whether the problem is me, this computer, my ISP, my phone lines, someone else's computer, or gremlins./w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif
Bird
No problem, Al. It's just that when this computer does weird things, I never know whether the problem is me, this computer, my ISP, my phone lines, someone else's computer, or gremlins./w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif
Bird
cowboydoc
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Re: Dumb moves/airline bailout
3rd base,
Unfortunately no all of us here are not insiders like yourself. If what you say is true then there are two sides to the story. BUT before you go calling all of us liars and such everything that has been said here has been reported by the news. I read this entire thread again and I haven't heard one thing here that wasn't reported in the news. I understand you being upset about what is written here but lighten up a little on everyone. I haven't heard anything of what you are saying being reported in the news. Yes the news is more often wrong than right but it's the only place those of us outside the loop can get information. Thank you for reporting the other side of the story.
3rd base,
Unfortunately no all of us here are not insiders like yourself. If what you say is true then there are two sides to the story. BUT before you go calling all of us liars and such everything that has been said here has been reported by the news. I read this entire thread again and I haven't heard one thing here that wasn't reported in the news. I understand you being upset about what is written here but lighten up a little on everyone. I haven't heard anything of what you are saying being reported in the news. Yes the news is more often wrong than right but it's the only place those of us outside the loop can get information. Thank you for reporting the other side of the story.
3rdbase
Member
Re: Dumb moves/airline bailout
Cowboydoc,
I've too have read and re-read every post many times over, because I couldn't believe what was before my eyes, and I stand by what I said. I have not called anyone a liar, so I have no need to defend myself. I said "how about giving fellow Americans the benefit of the doubt before typing lies." I'll stand by that.
You admonish me to lighten up. I shouldn't react strongly to claims that my entire labor group is overpaid for a part time job and that we, (the industry) are traitors that should be in the same boat as gas station owners who gouged? After all, we go on strike every few weeks. I ask you, do reasonable, thoughtful people make such claims? These are but a few of the assertions made that are baseless and patently untrue, and I reserve the right to defend myself and my profession.
You bring up the point that everything said here was reported in the news, and the things I brought up were not. United and American's CEOs refusing further compensation was reported. The hearings before congress regarding the relief act were reported. Testimony during those hearings, (reported), explained the circumstances just as I stated in my last post. Severance pay issues are available, but the mainstream media may choose not to report them. Does that mean they don't exist?
Again, I want to make the point that not posts on this thread are inflammatory, but some clearly are. If anything I said is not true, tell me. If any questions I posed, and I posed many, can be answered in a manner that will yield more light than heat, feel free. I will be pleased to share any "inside" information that would be interesting in this time of national tragedy, but I will not sit idly by and watch some people say things, under the cover of anonymity, that are baseless.
Cowboydoc,
I've too have read and re-read every post many times over, because I couldn't believe what was before my eyes, and I stand by what I said. I have not called anyone a liar, so I have no need to defend myself. I said "how about giving fellow Americans the benefit of the doubt before typing lies." I'll stand by that.
You admonish me to lighten up. I shouldn't react strongly to claims that my entire labor group is overpaid for a part time job and that we, (the industry) are traitors that should be in the same boat as gas station owners who gouged? After all, we go on strike every few weeks. I ask you, do reasonable, thoughtful people make such claims? These are but a few of the assertions made that are baseless and patently untrue, and I reserve the right to defend myself and my profession.
You bring up the point that everything said here was reported in the news, and the things I brought up were not. United and American's CEOs refusing further compensation was reported. The hearings before congress regarding the relief act were reported. Testimony during those hearings, (reported), explained the circumstances just as I stated in my last post. Severance pay issues are available, but the mainstream media may choose not to report them. Does that mean they don't exist?
Again, I want to make the point that not posts on this thread are inflammatory, but some clearly are. If anything I said is not true, tell me. If any questions I posed, and I posed many, can be answered in a manner that will yield more light than heat, feel free. I will be pleased to share any "inside" information that would be interesting in this time of national tragedy, but I will not sit idly by and watch some people say things, under the cover of anonymity, that are baseless.
cowboydoc
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Re: Dumb moves/airline bailout
3rd base,
I only have time to listen to radio and read the news that is on msn. 99% of what I have heard is against the airlines on this. If you read my post I said you are right and thanks for sharing the information and setting the record straight. No you didn't say anyone was lying I just interpreted it that way. My fault if I interpreted wrong. One issue though is that did you see any compensation for the hundreds of other businesses though that are still shut down due to this? I don't have any issue with anything that you've said. I know from this board that what the outside views siutations as and what really goes on are two different stories. But why does the airline get a bailout package and all the other businesses and owners of small business don't get a bailout package? Yes there may be low interest loans available but there will be no "free" money for them. Regardless of the situation every business must accept the risk involved in doing business. If airlines were still regulated then yes I wouldn't have a problem with it. But with deregulation why do they get special treatment?
3rd base,
I only have time to listen to radio and read the news that is on msn. 99% of what I have heard is against the airlines on this. If you read my post I said you are right and thanks for sharing the information and setting the record straight. No you didn't say anyone was lying I just interpreted it that way. My fault if I interpreted wrong. One issue though is that did you see any compensation for the hundreds of other businesses though that are still shut down due to this? I don't have any issue with anything that you've said. I know from this board that what the outside views siutations as and what really goes on are two different stories. But why does the airline get a bailout package and all the other businesses and owners of small business don't get a bailout package? Yes there may be low interest loans available but there will be no "free" money for them. Regardless of the situation every business must accept the risk involved in doing business. If airlines were still regulated then yes I wouldn't have a problem with it. But with deregulation why do they get special treatment?
3rdbase
Member
Re: Dumb moves/airline bailout
Thanks doc. I will try to answer your question(s) as best I can. I am no expert in airline economics, but as you can imagine I know the situation well enough to shed some light on it. Before I do though, I want to comment on something you bring up that is quite true. You say that 99% of what you've heard is against the airlines and I share that view. For some reason, airline execs, pilots, whomever, are rarely afforded the opportunity to speak before the national media. I don't understand why they allow such poundings to take place without response, but I do know that my airline mgt. has worked nonstop-and I mean to the point of exhaustion since this attack ocurred. My chief pilot sends out daily messages to us to keep us informed. He specifially addressed the severance issue but said they didn't have the time yet to put it out publicly, because they were all so involved in trying to rescue the system. As to why there isn't a plan for others, I can't comment, since I'm not a FEMA authority. I do think that a designation as a disaster area aids this process, and that was dont the very night of the attacks. I do want to inform the readers of this thread what happened on the 11th vis a vis my industry.
First of all, the govt. through the FAA diverted all flights airborn at the time to prevent further attacks. Every route system was immediately trashed.Then they grounded all normally scheduled flights until further notice. After that, new security measures were put in place that made it impossible to run any airline's system. As you probably know, airlines run hub and spoke systems which, though extremely complex, allow the US domestic air transport system to cost the least and offer trravelers the most options. Foreign carriers charge much more, are almost all are government subsidized, yet still lose money. These hub and spoke systems cannot be run using the newly mandated procedures. The impact on reservations was immediate and catastrophic, and while I heard some specifics, I know that the facts pointed to no carrier being able to survive for more than two months. Given those realities, it was impossible to access the capital markets for funds to "hold them over" until things returned to surviveable. They haven't yet. It was impossible to insure the operations, and noone can operate without insurance. The airlines were in a position of filing for bancruptcy to protect remaining assets, a circumstance they have a fiduciary responsibility to do in order protect the real owner's (stockholders) assets. To do otherwise would have been negligent. Those same remaining assets would have to be devalued by an incredibly high percent, since there would essentially be no market for them. Now, imagine this, every airline files ch.11 within two weeks of eachother. No interest payments on outstanding loans, most of the principle reduced to pennies on the dollar, over one million immediate layoffs. Cities like New York, Boston, Chicago, Miami, Washington, Dallas, LA, San Francisco and Seattle bear the brunt of this. An industry said to be app. 10% of the GDP taken out in two weeks, because of an act of terrorism unknown in human history. There's been the argument made here that if a business can't make money it should go out. There's some validity to that, and airlines go out regularly. You make the point that airlines are no longer regulated, but that is largely false. That's not your fault, it's a common misconception. It is an industry which is literally contolled by the US govt. and has many fewer options than a normal publicly traded company. Airlines can't move a wheel without govt. approval. Gates, airport accesss, routes, and almost everything else are controlled by the govt. The only things that are deregulated are fares and domestic routes. Routes with no gates, routes without airports. Airlines pay massive user fees and other taxes that the govt needs. I have just covered the surface. Some will not make it, others will change dramatically. But I can tell you that, if they don't make it, it won't be because of accusations made here by some. Thanks for affording me the opportunity to respond.
Thanks doc. I will try to answer your question(s) as best I can. I am no expert in airline economics, but as you can imagine I know the situation well enough to shed some light on it. Before I do though, I want to comment on something you bring up that is quite true. You say that 99% of what you've heard is against the airlines and I share that view. For some reason, airline execs, pilots, whomever, are rarely afforded the opportunity to speak before the national media. I don't understand why they allow such poundings to take place without response, but I do know that my airline mgt. has worked nonstop-and I mean to the point of exhaustion since this attack ocurred. My chief pilot sends out daily messages to us to keep us informed. He specifially addressed the severance issue but said they didn't have the time yet to put it out publicly, because they were all so involved in trying to rescue the system. As to why there isn't a plan for others, I can't comment, since I'm not a FEMA authority. I do think that a designation as a disaster area aids this process, and that was dont the very night of the attacks. I do want to inform the readers of this thread what happened on the 11th vis a vis my industry.
First of all, the govt. through the FAA diverted all flights airborn at the time to prevent further attacks. Every route system was immediately trashed.Then they grounded all normally scheduled flights until further notice. After that, new security measures were put in place that made it impossible to run any airline's system. As you probably know, airlines run hub and spoke systems which, though extremely complex, allow the US domestic air transport system to cost the least and offer trravelers the most options. Foreign carriers charge much more, are almost all are government subsidized, yet still lose money. These hub and spoke systems cannot be run using the newly mandated procedures. The impact on reservations was immediate and catastrophic, and while I heard some specifics, I know that the facts pointed to no carrier being able to survive for more than two months. Given those realities, it was impossible to access the capital markets for funds to "hold them over" until things returned to surviveable. They haven't yet. It was impossible to insure the operations, and noone can operate without insurance. The airlines were in a position of filing for bancruptcy to protect remaining assets, a circumstance they have a fiduciary responsibility to do in order protect the real owner's (stockholders) assets. To do otherwise would have been negligent. Those same remaining assets would have to be devalued by an incredibly high percent, since there would essentially be no market for them. Now, imagine this, every airline files ch.11 within two weeks of eachother. No interest payments on outstanding loans, most of the principle reduced to pennies on the dollar, over one million immediate layoffs. Cities like New York, Boston, Chicago, Miami, Washington, Dallas, LA, San Francisco and Seattle bear the brunt of this. An industry said to be app. 10% of the GDP taken out in two weeks, because of an act of terrorism unknown in human history. There's been the argument made here that if a business can't make money it should go out. There's some validity to that, and airlines go out regularly. You make the point that airlines are no longer regulated, but that is largely false. That's not your fault, it's a common misconception. It is an industry which is literally contolled by the US govt. and has many fewer options than a normal publicly traded company. Airlines can't move a wheel without govt. approval. Gates, airport accesss, routes, and almost everything else are controlled by the govt. The only things that are deregulated are fares and domestic routes. Routes with no gates, routes without airports. Airlines pay massive user fees and other taxes that the govt needs. I have just covered the surface. Some will not make it, others will change dramatically. But I can tell you that, if they don't make it, it won't be because of accusations made here by some. Thanks for affording me the opportunity to respond.
EdDekker
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Re: Dumb moves/airline bailout
<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>
Boeing is probably the worst of all. A negative impact on the airline industry would take at least weeks if not months to impact orders for new planes, yet Boeing announced 30k layoffs around Sept. 18 and we still don't know what the long term effects will be on their business.
<hr></blockquote>
Aviation Week reported (on the 19th) that the deliveries of Boeing jets on order had already been streached out by the airlines.
Boeing had planned to deliver 538 planes this year and now expects only 500 to be accepted by airlines. Next year Boeing had expected to deliver between 510 and 520 planes, now Boeing expects to deliver as few as 400 next year.
Ed
<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>
Boeing is probably the worst of all. A negative impact on the airline industry would take at least weeks if not months to impact orders for new planes, yet Boeing announced 30k layoffs around Sept. 18 and we still don't know what the long term effects will be on their business.
<hr></blockquote>
Aviation Week reported (on the 19th) that the deliveries of Boeing jets on order had already been streached out by the airlines.
Boeing had planned to deliver 538 planes this year and now expects only 500 to be accepted by airlines. Next year Boeing had expected to deliver between 510 and 520 planes, now Boeing expects to deliver as few as 400 next year.
Ed
cowboydoc
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Re: Dumb moves/airline bailout
Thanks for the comments 3rdbase. I don't feel bad about the bailout now. I sure wish the media would report all sides of the story. Just goes to show you that you really can't believe the news anymore.
Thanks for the comments 3rdbase. I don't feel bad about the bailout now. I sure wish the media would report all sides of the story. Just goes to show you that you really can't believe the news anymore.
