Dumb moves

[ccatfish]

Re: Dumb moves/airline bailout

For all – sorry you have to listen to this.

For 3rdbase,
Sorry you take the negative comments so personally. They were not intended that way. I am sure you are a highly competent pilot. I will confess to not having complete information. That’s always the case, but that arrogance allegation you made was especially interesting.

I will state unequivocally that I have never ever seen any airline jeopardize safety, so I will leave out all comments related to weather, even though it is often a convenient excuse for other delays. That aside, consider:
· The travel industry in general and the airline industry specifically is the only business I know of anywhere in the world that gouges its best customers, the business travelers, and offers deep discounts to everyone else.
· The airline industry is a government-sanctioned oligopoly. There are choices, just no competition. Cutthroat tactics to squash competitors may be legal, but it costs my company major dollars. Case in point: Legend Airlines.
· It is the powerful ATA lobby that has resisted any kind of meaningful change, including the customer bill of rights.
· The illegal strike by AA pilots a couple of years back cost me a 13 hour car drive, one day of missed work, a traffic ticket, and lost family time.
· The flight attendant strike of ’94 – cost me two days with my family, a lost client, extra hotel and rent car fees
· UA pilots latest contract pays up to $380k a year, more than my two doctor friends and veterinarian are paid combined.
· I’ve can think of several instances where my flight cancelled “due to mechanical problems” only to find out the plane was pulled to use on another route. Those are just the ones I know about.
· How about this 20 times over: “you’re flight will be delayed 15-20 minutes” only for it to be cancelled after all other “competing” flights have departed.
· Notification 30 minutes before departure time that the flight will be delayed, only to learn later from the flight crew the plane had been running 2 hours late all day.
· If you live near an airport that is controlled by a single airline, price gouging is the norm. Ask anyone in Cincinnati, Charlotte, Dallas, or Denver. Why does a round trip from Houston to SanFrancisco cost $1200, but from Dallas (~200 miles closer) it costs $1800?
· Airlines and their unions have routinely held the traveling public hostage for their own benefit. Interesting how the Thanksgiving holiday is so often used as leverage.

Now, would you like to revisit that word “arrogance” again?

There is not an ounce of good taste or patriotism in Continental announcing the layoff of 12,000 employees THREE DAYS AFTER THE TRADEGY. Good grief, they could have at least waited until Monday.

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Re: Dumb moves/airline bailout

How the airlines operate is just like the PO, cost of shipping boxes is knocked down below cost so they can compete with UPS, then the cost of a first class letter is jacked up to make up for it.

I don't want anybody anywhere anytime to lose their jobs, even if they make 200K for sweeping the floor,as long as I don't have to pay for it out of my tax dollars or the joke Social Security fund us poor working stiffs may have to rely on to at least pay our property taxes.

I still have trouble with the math, combined airlines have lost 1B so they want 24. I can see the US helping with the few days they were grounded and to possibly help with underwriting insurance if that tanks, but nothing else. If they can't survive after that let a few of them go under, it just indicates there were too many planes to begin with. And contrary to the fear BS, ONE or more of them WILL continue to fly if the field is cleared out a bit.

I recently flew to San Diego from Seattle, roundtrip ticket was $129!!!, that's probably what I paid 30years ago flying military standby the same route. You wouldn't think anyone would complain about low prices, but I only fly about once every 3 years or so when the family won't drive with me anymore , I'm too worried about how the airlines are affording all that scheduled maintenance on no dollars, and trying to forget the last 60 minutes piece done on airline mechanics complaining about being told to not down an airplane for problems.

True the media is off about 80% of the time but there's probably 20% of the info to be nervous about.

I agree on the business traveler gouging, if you want to have an interesting conversation sometime on an airline, ask the people around you what they paid for their tickets.

I would rather pay a fair price, with a much stronger FAA checking the maintenance and security. I want to be assured that the captain of the plane who "only" works 20 hours a month isn't being forced to work them straight because that's where the plane happens to be needed. (The 20 hours is fictional, but the working too long in a stretch is not from what I hear).

I'm not one to jump on the government band wagon for regulation but it sure seemed like flying was better before 1978. Yes, I know I'm naive to think memories of people dressing up or even bathing before a flight could ever come back. Now some of the people that can afford to fly are those that used to travel by clinging to the bottom of semi's.

I echo everyone's sentiments, the IMMEDIATE announcement of 10's of thousands of employees to be DUMPED was the grossest thing I could imagine any company doing, given the stress levels, ESPECIALLY among those people we depend on to fly us around. I'm sure they really needed that on top of it all.

Boeing is still I see is one of the most bastardly companies around as well. They moved their headquarters out of Seattle last year to be "close to their customers" in Chicago. When questioned on moving the airplane plants they were noncommital "no plans..." etc was the comment, yeah right no plans. Now they can easily dump 30K workers. I wonder if any land purchases have been made by Boeing in Mexico recently? Or maybe that plant in Indonesia or wherever can step up production.

A huge number of people have been hurt financially by this, almost all of us to some extent, I guess we were all to dumb to go grab a government nipple before Boeing and the airlines got on them all.

del

 

[3rdbase]

Re: Dumb moves/airline bailout

Ccatfish,
I stand by what I said in other posts. I will comment on your latest however.
1. "The travel industry in general and the airline industry specifically is the only business I know of anywhere in the world that gouges its best customers, the business travelers, and offers deep discounts to everyone else."
I've looked at three different travel sights offering airline fares and have yet to see a listing wherein "business traveler" fares are different from others offered. If what you really mean to say is that fares differ by the time of the reservation and the specifics of the trip, then that is certainly correct. I ask you to show me one example of how a business traveler is unable to get any posted fare because he/she is a business traveler. Airline ticket pricing is capitalism at it's most extreme. It's an ebay auction of every seat available. Many seats are sold far below cost and many are not. I don't like it but it's a fact.

2. To claim that a traffic ticket was the fault was the fault of a union stretches credibility. Is this another version of the twinky defense? To claim that a strike in 94 cost you "two days with my family, a lost client, extra hotel and rent car fees, " is also a bit strange. You're telling me that you didn't know about it and could not have made other arrangements? That contract had expired years prior to 94, and the negotiations were conducted in full compliance with the Railway Labor Act, up to and including a 30 day, publicized cooling off period. The fact that the two parties could not agree on a settlement prior to a well-publicized strike was known by all. No one hates a job action worse than the parties involved, but good Lord, you didn't know? Ever been to Europe? This country and this industry enjoy incredibly few strikes by comparison. The president has the right to convene a PEB to prevent strikes in this industry, and he either has, or threatened to on numerous occasions.
3. "I’ve can think of several instances where my flight cancelled “due to mechanical problems” only to find out the plane was pulled to use on another route. Those are just the ones I know about."
I can't comment on other carriers, but I can on mine. I've been flying for 17 years and have never seen this happen. There are what are called Minimum Equipment List issues that very rarely come into play, like in extended overwater operations, but I have never seen this done domestically. What I have seen is a plane being fixed in less time than originally thought and used.
4. A United pilot can make $380,000/year? Where did you get this? I just looked at the United pay rates and if I take their highest rates and divide 380k I come up with a number of hours illegal and impossible to fly. Not sure where that came from, but it's nowhere near reality. A couple points though. As you may know, United's pilots rescued the company from Steven Wolf a few years ago, and took pretty big pay cuts in order to do it. They lived under those pay cuts for years. Additionally, I have never seen the press accurately report pilot salaries. I am at a loss on how they get such numbers, but suffice it to say, it would be impossible to make the numbers they claim. I would challenge anyone to show me a W2 corresponding to any such claims. We laugh when we read such things. I've done the work to disprove this, now you show me where I'm wrong.
On your other points, it would take too much time to address them adequately. The psngr bill of rights thing is not a bad idea in principle, but in it's form it was absurd, as are many things the govt. dreams up for press purposes. You've stated many things as facts and they are just not correct.

 

[TWINKLE_TOES]

Re: Dumb moves/airline bailout

<font color=blue>Boeing is still I see is one of the most bastardly companies around as well. They moved their headquarters out
of Seattle last year to be "close to their customers" in Chicago. When questioned on moving the airplane plants
they were noncommital "no plans..." etc was the comment, yeah right no plans. Now they can easily dump 30K
workers. I wonder if any land purchases have been made by Boeing in Mexico recently? Or maybe that plant in
Indonesia or wherever can step up production.</font color=blue>

del, that's not fair. The Boeing workers interviewed locally who may lose their jobs, don't bad mouth the company. If you don't sell as many airplanes you don't need as many workers. Your speculation is interesting, but unfounded does not warrant your conclusion.
Al

 

[3rdbase]

Re: Dumb moves/airline bailout

TwinkleToes,
I see your point and I don't know enough about Boeing to comment specifically. What is a shame though is that Airbus, their only competitor, is heavily subsidized by European govts., and the field for Boeing is anything but level. Boeing builds a fabulous airplane without govt. subsidies. I understand your points though.

 

[Bird]

Re: Dumb moves/airline bailout

3rdbase, maybe if the airlines didn't do so many things that just make no sense at all to us mere mortals, perhaps they wouldn't be so intensely disliked by so many people.

As has already been mentioned, the fact that the individuals on the same airplane, making the same trip at the same time, paid so many different prices for their tickets just doesn't make sense to a lot of us. Small differences I could understand; little discounts for frequent fliers, etc., but the really big differences leave a lot of people feeling they've been cheated.

And a week ago yesterday, I went to Austin, TX, to pick up my brother and his wife, flying back from Seattle. I don't remember the exact amounts that he told me, but it was much cheaper to fly from Seattle to Austin than to fly from Seattle to Dallas even though they flew to Dallas, had a layover, changed planes, and then on to Austin. Ridiculous, makes no sense at all. Of course, they could have bought the tickets to Austin, got off in Dallas, and not get on the other plane to Austin, but their luggage would have gone on to Austin.

There was a time when I actually kind of enjoyed flying, but now I hope and plan to never fly on a commercial airliner again, and those hopes have absolutely nothing to do with fear of terrorists.

Bird

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Re: Dumb moves/airline bailout

Bird, that reminds me of the old way from the 60s, buy a ticket from Seattle to San Francisco, on a plane that is continuing on to LA, and pretend to be asleep when they stop in SF. In the old days they didn't always make you disembark for a few minutes, maybe still don't.

del

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Re: Dumb moves/airline bailout

TWINKLE TOES...
You wrote:
<<<<<The Boeing workers interviewed locally who may lose their jobs, don't bad mouth the company.>>>>

If I worked somewhere I wouldn't bad mouth the company in an interview either.

I worked for Boeing in 1969 and 70 for about 6 months before the crash (it's required of Washington residents to work at Boeing sometimes in their lives/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif)

I learned a lot working for them, was hired on during one of the biggest boom times. I learned about unions...once when I had NOTHING to do and was bored out of my mind I went out and started helping to unload a truck. Union slobs immediately made it clear I had no business doing something out of "job classification." I had to go back and sit and do nothing.

I learned a lot about big company managment decisions. My part of the plant "worked" on Christmas Eve and Christmas Day at triple time? Quadruple Time? Management didn't have the brains to possibly check on what our section did, as in maybe they ought to bring in the section that made the parts we were to finish....We had NOTHING to do. I remember loading air glue guns, those things that push out tar like glue, with water and having water fights. (Hey I was 18). I won't go into all the other things we did to kill time those 2 days I don't know if the statutes on stupidity have run out yet.

I learned about corporate compassion, how they never would tell my dad when he was going to be canned, he was terribly stressed by it all. To me life was a goof, to him it was serious business.

And Boeing moves to Chicago to be "near" it's customers, why so they can share alcohol and ******? I buy and sell just fine to Asia without moving to Bangkok. If they are going to lose a deal to Airbus because they didn't kiss some airlines ass in person, what does that say. The growth of the company is not in the US probably anyway, it's in ASIA, the PACIFIC RIM, where SEATTLE just happens to be closest to.

And as to mouthing off, I know of a certain specialty machine shop that worked for a large manufacturing company that will go nameless here, I think they are in Seattle, that was interviewed on TV about nonpayment etc by the big company. He had spent a huge amount of money changing his machines. He paid dearly for his comments. He was crushed like a bug.

del

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Re: Dumb moves/airline bailout

Twinkle Toes...

And putting aside any unproven thoughts of canning workers so they can build up later with cheaper labor...

The simple fact, like with the airlines, of their telling an already stressed people that a big chunk of them maybe unemployed WAS bastardly, I can't think of any other word to describe it. They couldn't have waited a week or 10 days?

del

 

[3rdbase]

Re: Dumb moves/airline bailout

Bird,
Believe it or not, I couldn't agree with you more. I think far too much time and manpower is wasted on these fare programs, or what is called in the industry, "yield management." Having said that, I want to explain why they are the way they are. The US domestic airline business is a money losing operation. There are certain carriers that make money doing it, and to a large extend they do so because of special circumstances the gov. has allowed them. But, net-net, it's a money loser. The competition is so intense that the carriers who are able to stay in business must price nearly every seat on supply and demand. That's why I said in an earlier post that it's basically an ebay auction for every seat. My company has 24/7 monitoring of every seat on every airliner for every flight in the US, and adjusts prices more than 10,00 times per day-I'm told. It is absolutely bizarre, but two points:
1. The margins are so thin that to be successful, it must be done.
2. There are many, many passengers that enjoy significant cost savings because they can make their reservations early.
That being said, I can tell you that no other country flies at such prices, or with such options. I fly international all the time, and the foreign passengers cannot believe the prices or options here. In the early 90's a major airline tried to change all this by simply basing fares on cost of service. It didn't last two days. I am hoping beyond hope that this tragedy, which will certainly push some over the ch.11 edge will once and for all cure this pricing madness. Till then I don't know what's to happen, but believe me, I agree with you.
I'm not of a personality or demeanor to speak much about these issues. My only point in ever getting on this thread was to discuss the efficacy of the airline relief act from a perspective that wasn't evident in the initial posts. Since then, more allegations have arisen that are blatantly false. The $380,00 United captain is so ridiculous as to be beyond belief. I talked to a friend of mine who would know for sure and he said if I wanted, there would be 9500 posts, all from different authors, tomorrow, on this thread denying that. He was shocked and offended. I know a lot of the people making the decisions right now, and these are incredibly tough times for them. To be called unpatriotic or anything else is to state that the posters, if presented the same data, would not do the same, if not similar things. I want to end by saying the airline pilots in this country, along with the flight attendants, mechanics and all other support personnel will work our rear ends off, to get through this. Till then, I would just ask that we treat all Americans with respect, and operate from a basic perspective that America was built and is being run by honest people who pretty much know what their doing and mostly do the right thing. If any guilt is found, I'll be the first to hang the guilty.