E/85 Flex Fuel The Documentary called Pump...

[ModMech]

Copperhead also did not factor in the producer grants, vary by state but are not insignificant.

Like I said, if the engine is ENGINEERED to take full advantage.... most are not.

 

[Copperhead]

If you look at the more extensive reports, it factors in just about everything but the kitchen sink in the costs of ethanol production. And if we want to get into grants and how they rip off the taxpayers.... wind. Those wind tower grants trump ethanol grants by several magnitudes. With far lower return on grant investment than ethanol. And oil companies also get their own little perks from governments. Heck, many commercial truck operators are given grants for putting auxillery power units on their trucks... some to the tune of $5000 or more per truck. There are grants for anything and everything going on in America. Grants to put windows in your house even. It is the height of disingenuous to single out something like any supposed ethanol producer grants to build a refinery. And let's be serious.... there may be a grant or tax abatement towards building a plant, which provides jobs that have taxable wages. There are no subsidies or grants to actually make the stuff. Those died in 2011. Ethanol is sold on the commodities exchanges just like any other commodity and subject to investor buying and market fluctuations. Oh... sounds something like oil, gas, diesel, coal, gold, silver, copper, corn, oats, steel, and any other commodity.

 

[Diamondpilot]

Copperhead, cost per mile is lower on E-85 for you, because you are Iowa. This is where corn is made and ethanol plants are plentiful. In most other states E-85 is not as cheap.

Here in Indiana Ethanol is a wash at best. My experience with it in 2 Fords and a GM were roughly 30% less economy but no loss of performance.

For me if it's cheaper I will run it. If not I will run a Global Product, Oil!

Chris

 

[Copperhead]

Yeah, it is a regional pricing thing. No argument there.

My 2015 2500HD 6.0L averages for all miles... gravel, highway, in town, off road, etc... about 14.5 on regular fuel. On E85, it averages about 2 mpg less, at about 12.7 mpg. Regular E0 is running $2.45 in my area and E10 is running at about $2.36. Mpg on both of them is very comparable, with little difference. So on E0, my cost is about 16.9 cents a mile and on E10, it is about 16.3 cents a mile, at the current pricing.

On E85 at the current price of $1.84 in my area, and 12.7 mpg average on it, the cost per mile is roughly 14.5 cents a mile. So since it is about 2 cents a mile less to use it, E85 is going in the tank right now. As seasonal price changes occur, I will switch to whatever provides the lowest cost per mile to use.

And it is just that simple, folks. I use what gives me the lowest operating cost. If ethanol free provided that, I would use it. All last spring and early summer, E15 was the cost per mile winner. We'll see how this fall and winter shape up. Like everyone else, I like seeing high mpg numbers, but it really means nothing if it is costing more to get it! This is one reason I have really grown fond of flex fuel motors. I have a smorgasbord of fuels to choose from and I can select which one I will fill with based on a cost per mile formula. We have ethanol free regular and Premium, E10 (regular, mid grade, and premium), E15, E20, E30, and E85 in my area. That is a broad selection to choose from. Now to be fair, premium will never go in the tank. It would never be the cost per mile leader at any time. But it is nice to have a wild selection to choose from. One of the reasons I would never consider something like the GM 6.2L Ecotec motor in the 1500. Being stuck on premium only just wouldn't cut it.

 

[aczlan]

Regarding fuel system components, any vehicle that has a flex fuel engine as an option in the lineup, is getting the same fuel system components even if the motor is not rated for E85 in that lineup. All that needs changed is the ECM coding. I have hauled production auto components to assembly plants for decades, and they are not keeping two different sets of fuel system components on the line. That is inefficient, more costly, and the risk of getting the wrong components in a vehicle is too high. And we haven't even gotten into the mixups in logistics of the wrong components being delivered at the set schedule they are needed on the line. Assembly plants use Just In Time logistics. There is not stacks and stack of components sitting around just waiting for the day they are to be installed. Deliveries are done on production line schedules. A truck has 15 minutes either side of the delivery window to be at the plant. If a line has to be shut down due to parts not showing up on schedule, it costs over $100,000 an hour the line is shut down. Just check with any assembly plant and they will confirm all of this.

As I understand it, a Flex Fuel vehicle needs an additional sensor such as: Amazon.com: Continental 13577394 GM Ethanol E85 Flex Fuel Sensor (Haltech, Zeitronix, Nistune, etc): Automotive that is to determine how much Ethanol is in the fuel and adjust the fuel mapping accordingly.

Aaron Z

 

[woodlandfarms]

Not to spin this even further afield, but I remember this study that shows we are calculating gas efficency incorrectly ( I think the Feds got into this and something changed on the car stickers last year to reflect this study).

Basically it says going from a 35 mpg car to a 50MPG is not a great change. It is the low mileage cars are what is benefited most from a MPG increase.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2XSuw02vKA

 

[aczlan]

Not to spin this even further afield, but I remember this study that shows we are calculating gas efficency incorrectly ( I think the Feds got into this and something changed on the car stickers last year to reflect this study).

Basically it says going from a 35 mpg car to a 50MPG is not a great change. It is the low mileage cars are what is benefited most from a MPG increase.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2XSuw02vKA

It is a diminishing return, thats for sure. Would be more useful to use gallons per 100 miles.

Aaron Z

 

[eth555]

As I understand it, a Flex Fuel vehicle needs an additional sensor such as: Amazon.com: Continental 13577394 GM Ethanol E85 Flex Fuel Sensor (Haltech, Zeitronix, Nistune, etc): Automotive that is to determine how much Ethanol is in the fuel and adjust the fuel mapping accordingly.

Aaron Z

Not all flex fuel cars use a sensor. Ford's (Unless it is older like mid 90's model) use the oxygen sensors already on the car to determine ethanol content in the fuel. The more ethanol the more oxygen in the fuel.

 

[Redneck in training]

Not to spin this even further afield, but I remember this study that shows we are calculating gas efficency incorrectly ( I think the Feds got into this and something changed on the car stickers last year to reflect this study).

Basically it says going from a 35 mpg car to a 50MPG is not a great change. It is the low mileage cars are what is benefited most from a MPG increase.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2XSuw02vKA

What was feds saying is that the original fuel consumption test didn't suggest actual driving fuel consumption. The new test approximates actual driving better.
The power requirement increases with cube of speed. In example to increase speed two times power requirements increases 8 times. Thus fuel consumption is also approximately proportional to speed cubed. In other words going from 35 to 55 will increase fuel consumption almost four times.

 

[Copperhead]

As I understand it, a Flex Fuel vehicle needs an additional sensor such as: Amazon.com: Continental 13577394 GM Ethanol E85 Flex Fuel Sensor (Haltech, Zeitronix, Nistune, etc): Automotive that is to determine how much Ethanol is in the fuel and adjust the fuel mapping accordingly.

Aaron Z

Could be. Doesn't take away from my contention on uniformity of fuel system components in a vehicle. A sensor is just a sensor placed in the fuel line and the ECM programming has to recognize it. But the fuel lines, pumps, injectors, rails, and everything else are the same across the vehicle product line irregardless if in a flex fuel vehicle or non flex fuel in modern build autos and pickups. This is why a flex fuel spec, when a vehicle has a choice of being flex fuel or not, is usually only a $100 or less spec from the factory. Maybe a sensor, and definitely ECM programming is all that is needed.