E/85 Flex Fuel The Documentary called Pump...

[aczlan]

Could be. Doesn't take away from my contention on uniformity of fuel system components in a vehicle. A sensor is just a sensor placed in the fuel line and the ECM programming has to recognize it. But the fuel lines, pumps, injectors, rails, and everything else are the same across the vehicle product line irregardless if in a flex fuel vehicle or non flex fuel in modern build autos and pickups. This is why a flex fuel spec, when a vehicle has a choice of being flex fuel or not, is usually only a $100 or less spec from the factory. Maybe a sensor, and definitely ECM programming is all that is needed.

From what I have read, a FFV needs more fuel flow, so injectors could be different and in some cases (like the Titan) the FFV variant has a different fuel pump: Using a Flex fuel pump for a regular gas engine? - Nissan Titan Forum

Aaron Z

 

[Copperhead]

Not sure why it would need different injectors. The amount of fuel is based on injector timing and duration. The rail has the pressure that is needed. True, that the old throttle body injection and carburetors would need different setup, but port and direct injection should be adequate, again, based on timing and duration. Can't speak to any other brand, but GM pickups get the same in the tank fuel pump..... flex fuel or not. Rail is constant pressure, non return system.

 

[aczlan]

From the discussion on the thread I linked do, it sounded like the E85 pump may have had different seals?
If you look at RockAuto Parts Catalog they list two pumps, one for flex and one for gas.

Aaron Z

 

[kenmac]

according to this ,,E85 Injector Sizing injectors for E85 are different size..I know yrs ago, I had a drag car with a carb. engine.. I ran it on Alcohol.. On Alcohol, the carb . jets had to be larger..
I used 2 x more Alcohol than I did regular racing gasoline... The Alcohol also produced a large amount of moisture in the engine, which meant more frequent oil changes


An article that backs up my claim about moisture in the engine Everything You Never Wanted to Know About Alcohol - Injector Dynamics As I said above.. I ran Alcohol in my drag car.. I know what it will do

 

[AxleHub]

Opens with the manipulation of oil companies in early America (1920's) via the Rockefellers. Well documented issue on how they manipulated infrastructure to sell oil. Moves on to how gas stations only sell one thing, gas in the US. How in Brazil they sell gas, ethanol methanol and electricty at the pump. Moves on to use of Ethanol on gas, Explains what Methanol is, then shows how simple it is to make Methanol. How car companies are not promoting Flex in this country. Finishes up with accusations that big oil has been manipulating the media (Food prices has risen due to Ethanol use as opposed to the movies conjecture that food prices were going up anyway due to the high cost of gas).

Makes a good stand on how we need to really get off the foreign oil tit and also realize that our gas / oil fields are finite.

For me it is intriguing as the movie made the stance that you can easily convert your car to FLEX either with a software hack or a control box.

Lol. Lol. Its good to start the day with laughter. As you said previously . . all media bend the scenario to fit their purpose . . and it appears this documentary does as well.

While I didn't see this docu. It propbably left out quite a number of details:

1. Our country prior to the discovery of oil was struggling mightily with a total lack of fuels/power to sustain the manufacturing/transportation/safety needs of our growth. The first engines were designed to use Kerosene which was a horrible fuel for pollution and flamability . . Not to mention high costs.

2. Coal and wood powered steam and it was highly bulky limitations and regional scarcity . . and of course no use for many applications.

3. Rockefeller's concepts made him a hero by the nation as we could defend ourselves better domestically and abroad, develop faster AND safer mobile transportation for citizens, and power new concepts of manufacture and work/home comfort. No longer was fire such a massive problem that kerosene and wood and coal had created in homes and cities and rural america.

4. A trend that continues a century later began . . "small oil" led the way in ingenuity and invention.

5. Ethanol is a "cleaner" and not a lubricant. So applications where ethanol is used as a cleaner are good . . where lubrcation is used . . are not good.

Continued

 

[AxleHub]

As you said previously woodlandfarms . . all media bend the scenario to fit their purpose . . and it appears this documentary does as well.

While I didn't see this docu. It propbably left out quite a number of details:

Continued to next

6. There is a HUGE reason why OPEC is out today 9-15-15 and anytime in the last 14 months . . to crush our shale development companies . . and ethanol of any form IS NOT the reason . . not even the tiniest of reasons. IT IS that we now are nearing the point where the U.S. can not only be energy/oil/n.gas self sustaing but also an exporter.

7. OPEC would love us to use ethanol because it weakens us . . NOT strengthens us. Two South Ametican countries have gone greatly to ethanol for two reasons:
A. They have little oil themselves and are not friendly with those that do have it in South America.
B. They can grow sugar cane cheaply and in massive quantity which is the far far far superior choice to corn by more than triple. Also they have switch grasses growing wild which is a backup source which is "only double" the efficiency of corn and those grasses grow wild. In the U.S. we can't grow quality sugar cane and the good switch grasses are not efficient to grow either. We can't use straw or hay either. You'll also note that since the artificial federal incrntives stopped the prices of corn and its by products have become more reasonable each year too even though we've developed some good new uses for field byproducts.

8. 15 years ago we were very dependent yet on OPEC both financially and politically. Today . .just 15 years later . . that has changed in massive and un-imagined ways because small oil and gas companies invented our way to success . . names like Continental Resources, Kodiak, and Whiting . . have rewritten the book on the U.S. energy potential which many others have followed in 6 regions of the country. Every 2 years since 2004 to 2014 we've seen a doubling of oil and n.gas reserves to exponential numbers.

9. Methanol is "rubber gloves needed" stuff . . not good for people or environment. Ethanol is a great cleaner which is why you find it in fuel cleaner additives . . but uts exoensive to produce and hard on surfaces including rubber, adhesives, etc. etc..

10. As I mentioned . . OPEC would love to see us continue ethanol use because they know the calculations . . the US federal government was paying massive subsidies to start and continue ethanol production . . in the range of 1.50 to 2.00 per gallon plus big parts of the costs of building manufacturing plants. Some states like Iowa also kicked in another 20 to 40 cents per gallon. All so ethanol producers could get quickly wealthy and made 20 year and 30 year committments. You'll notice that the largest of those businesses are going out of business or are building no new facilities since the Fedral incentives finally expired.

When you see calculations on mpg . . its only the SMALLEST part of a weak story . . its the staggering costs to get the raw product to the manufacturing location in labor, fuel for trucks, and road costs.

Corn is a great food source and its remainder wastes can be used for some new product uses . . but ethanol for vehicles is not one of them. The calculations ethanol plants used to plan ethanol paybacks were far far far too optimistic and would have required the sweet corn & cob only . . to do better than breakeven. Pure good Field corn and cob got you to near break even . . . and stalk and leaf got you to bankruptcy.

I knew a coop group who wanted desperately to become an ethanol producer. After years of trying they got the land they wanted . . . and just a few years ago a neighboring company bought the land from them at a handsome profit before it ever started building (noise/air pollution/trucking issues all motivated the purchase). As I mentioned that wad just 2 or 3 years ago. Luckiest day of that coop groups lives . . they made money and avoided certain bankruptcy just 7 months later had they started when the federal incentives expired.

 

[Copperhead]

Well, in the broad scheme of things, I could really give a rip about the history and political maneuvering. There is plenty of that in regards to anything we want to discuss about anything going on in life. I know, that even with a lower mpg out of my pickup, E85 right now offers the lowest cost per mile to operate it. If E0, E10, E15, E20, E30, etc offered the best value, I would use the one that delivers the best value. Nothing said here will dissuade me from using any blend of ethanol/gas available that offers the lowest cost per mile. Ethanol is being made. Nothing in the near term is going to change that.

 

[AxleHub]

Well, in the broad scheme of things, I could really give a rip about the history and political maneuvering. There is plenty of that in regards to anything we want to discuss about anything going on in life. I know, that even with a lower mpg out of my pickup, E85 right now offers the lowest cost per mile to operate it. If E0, E10, E15, E20, E30, etc offered the best value, I would use the one that delivers the best value. Nothing said here will dissuade me from using any blend of ethanol/gas available that offers the lowest cost per mile. Ethanol is being made. Nothing in the near term is going to change that.

You stated that E85 offers the lowest cost per mile to operate. But taxpayers have been paying nearly 2.00 a gallon for e85 to exist. And now virtually all of those tax payer financed incentives are eliminated the end of last year. Thank goodness. Its good for taxpayers.

But its also good for the environment. The E85 experiment was supposed to "save us from ourselves". But instead of benefitting the environment and conserving our oil . . It increased our environmental priblems and consumed oil. How? Well no thought was ever put into the vast effort and expense to harvest and gather all the roughage and huge transpirtation issues of non compressed marerials to create the materials arrival at the production plants. Air pollutuon is a frequent comment as ia road damage, noise and fuel consumed. Nor did the focus on ethanol ever want to admut that the oil and gas business was getting more efficient by exponential sizes and that "small oil" was leading technology while ethanol was using old "moonshine" concepts. Nobody wanted an ethanol plant next to them and the brewery conversions were a huge municipal problem for traffic, dirt, smell, and water demand.

Copperhead, I'm glad you like E85 . . but far in the majority others don't. Many places that offered it in our region . . Large fuel outlet chain franchises no longer carry e85 or any ethanol product except e10 unless decreed by state law (like Iowa).

Other than a small number of individual states that maintained their own incentives at still continuing taxpayer cost . . the rush to ethanol is over and done. . . and now the plant closings and processung contracts and new building plans are in cancellations and piling up. Sadly lots of shareholders and cities have seen their ethanol plant investments diminish greatly and for significant losses now and in the future.

And thank goodness that "small oil" huge efforts at improving oil and gas exploration has rescued us from greater environmental damage, from OPEC, and from "mainstream" ethanol's faulty plans.

 

[Copperhead]

That is a total crock. Ethanol subsidies were totally eliminated in 2011. That is pure fact. Ethanol is not getting any taxpayer money in any form.

Congress Ends Era Of Ethanol Subsidies : NPR

Calling some goofy mandates on ethanol use is not a subsidy. Else, seat belt makers, and just about everything else in America that gets made can be considered a subsidy. And the granddaddy of government waste and subsidy... wind farms. And any ethanol mandates are state controlled. In Iowa, where there are 46 bio fuel refineries surrounding me, I can readily get ethanol free gasoline in both regular and premium varieties any day of the week, year round, if I wanted to use it.

Sure, there have been grants to retailers to install ethanol blender pumps, but that is for pumps and infrastructure. Not a dime for the ethanol itself. And ethanol producers are not retailers. This article is another confirmation that ethanol producer susidies were eliminated at the end of 2011, and the so-called "subsidies" now are just for retailer blender pumps. Again, that is not for ethanol production. Any retailer can put in blender pumps all along if they wanted to. No, the retail fuel stations wanted some of our money to do it. To equate that to some ethanol production subsidy is asinine.

Obama's 2015 Budget Backs Costly Corn Ethanol Subsidies - US News



Ethanol production has a net gain on a BTU basis of 1.3 BTU of energy for every aspect of energy used to produce it. That is EVERY aspect of energy, from the energy used to make fertilizers, energy to transport, energy to make ethanol, energy to plant and harvest, everything. That is well documented in extensive studies.

http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/AF/265.pdf

 

[AxleHub]

That is a total crock. Ethanol subsidies were totally eliminated in 2011. That is pure fact. Ethanol is not getting any taxpayer money in any form.

Congress Ends Era Of Ethanol Subsidies : NPR

Calling some goofy mandates on ethanol use is not a subsidy. Else, seat belt makers, and just about everything else in America that gets made can be considered a subsidy. And the granddaddy of government waste and subsidy... wind farms. And any ethanol mandates are state controlled. In Iowa, where there are 46 bio fuel refineries surrounding me, I can readily get ethanol free gasoline in both regular and premium varieties any day of the week, year round, if I wanted to use it.

Sure, there have been grants to retailers to install ethanol blender pumps, but that is for pumps and infrastructure. Not a dime for the ethanol itself. And ethanol producers are not retailers. This article is another confirmation that ethanol producer susidies were eliminated at the end of 2011, and the so-called "subsidies" now are just for retailer blender pumps. Again, that is not for ethanol production. Any retailer can put in blender pumps all along if they wanted to. No, the retail fuel stations wanted some of our money to do it. To equate that to some ethanol production subsidy is asinine.

Obama's 2015 Budget Backs Costly Corn Ethanol Subsidies - US News

Ethanol production has a net gain on a BTU basis of 1.3 BTU of energy for every aspect of energy used to produce it. That is EVERY aspect of energy, from the energy used to make fertilizers, energy to transport, energy to make ethanol, energy to plant and harvest, everything. That is well documented in extensive studies.

http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/AF/265.pdf

Greetings Copperhead. I didn't have to go any further than your 1st link to see multiple contradictions from your story.

You said "Ethanol subsidies were totally eliminated in 2011. That is pure fact."

But your link shows subsidies continued for the worst thing . stalks and remainder . . just as I stated. Those ended the end of last year.

And you posted "And any ethanol mandates are state controlled."

Again not true at all. E10 is a Federal mandate for vehicular fuel unless collector car, or off road use etc. etc. which is why any station selling non ethanol fuel call it off road fuel or nonoxygenated fuel. States or municipal regions can require adfitive changes but they had no choice on E10 and Congress is now debating E15 but its unlikely.

And bio fuel refineries does not equal ethanol refineries . bio fuel comes in many types.

Your 1st link was all I had to read Copperhead.