Electric Cars: Chev Bolt seems to be the first practical one.

[buickanddeere]

Now that supply and demand are explained it's easy to see how pollution is transferred. If there would be no demand for products supplied from polluting areas the supply of such goods would surely stop!

Why should we over regulate industry here and drive jobs away to 3rd world countries without pollution controls, employee benefits or any regard for safety ?

 

[IslandTractor]

They don't call Winnipeg the name "Winterpeg" for nothing.
As you said , the EV is for downtown urbanites, a 2nd vehicle for putting around short trips or for use south of the Mason Dixon Line. Then again the political types my eliminate the Mason Dixon Line as they could find it offensive.

I would agree that there are parts of the US and many places in Canada where EV would be of limited use during the winter and therefore not a reliable only vehicle, but, the Mason Dixon line is too far south to draw that line. EVs live quite happily in Boston for example. I wouldn't blink at owning one in Philadelphia or NYC either. It's really the upper midwest that has weather and distance to travel characteristics that argue against EV (but hybrids still fine). Even in Minneapolis, if someone used their vehicle primarily for commuting (not driving to Chicago or Denver), and EV would be fine in the winter time. Also, the entire west coast up to and beyond Vancouver would be fine. Maine up to Portland would be no issue. Not so sure about Bangor or north of there.

It is really a combination of expected weather, travel distance/range needs and taking into account that in very cold temperatures the usual range is cut in half that should determine whether EV makes sense for a given northern location. And, as lithium battery density continues to rise, that "Mason Dixon EV" line will continue to move northwards.

Bottom line, there are advantages and disadvantages to EV/hybrid just as there are for diesel or gas. Know your needs and make a good choice. But don't think that your choice will have much effect on whether or not EV/hybrid will continue to grow market share. Your great grandkids might well grow up considering passenger vehicles with pure ICE powertrains the same way we think of the horse and buggy. Cute but from a bygone era.

 

[Redneck in training]

Bankrupted most railroads and caused nation wide pollution when the general public bought cars and trucks. Private companies and toll roads cost less per mile than a government operated highway.

I did a lot of jobs for Oil&Gas in past 30 years. I remember only few projects without huge cost overrun and waste of money. 30% - 50% cost overrun was common. My employer got paid two years for work that at normal circumstances would take about 5 weeks. When I asked how they can justify the expense the answer was do nor to worry about that. The project was two years late and only 4 billion over budget. There was no sense of urgency to have it done whatsoever. And what amazed me the most, the same equipment was built at the same location 5 times before. You would think if they built it 5 times before it should be done on time and on the budget. This behavior was quite typical. You could guess who paid for it at the end. People like you buying fuel at the pump.
Now if I work for a power station the story is different. It is get here, finish it all as fast as you can and leave. Why? They are regulated by government and have small profit margin.
And don't get me started about toll roads. Some are horrible full of potholes.

 

[vvanders]

I would agree that there are parts of the US and many places in Canada where EV would be of limited use during the winter and therefore not a reliable only vehicle, but, the Mason Dixon line is too far south to draw that line. EVs live quite happily in Boston for example. I wouldn't blink at owning one in Philadelphia or NYC either. It's really the upper midwest that has weather and distance to travel characteristics that argue against EV (but hybrids still fine). Even in Minneapolis, if someone used their vehicle primarily for commuting (not driving to Chicago or Denver), and EV would be fine in the winter time. Also, the entire west coast up to and beyond Vancouver would be fine. Maine up to Portland would be no issue. Not so sure about Bangor or north of there.

It is really a combination of expected weather, travel distance/range needs and taking into account that in very cold temperatures the usual range is cut in half that should determine whether EV makes sense for a given northern location. And, as lithium battery density continues to rise, that "Mason Dixon EV" line will continue to move northwards.

Bottom line, there are advantages and disadvantages to EV/hybrid just as there are for diesel or gas. Know your needs and make a good choice. But don't think that your choice will have much effect on whether or not EV/hybrid will continue to grow market share. Your great grandkids might well grow up considering passenger vehicles with pure ICE powertrains the same way we think of the horse and buggy. Cute but from a bygone era.

Yup, good analysis.

I've run our EV in ~20F and around those temperatures for most of the winter. There's a range hit of about ~30% mostly based on increased air density and how much you run the heater. Good news is I've got Superchargers in an 80mi radius(one in Centralia, Portland and there's now one just north of Seattle) so it's still possible to travel. You just plan and adjust for it.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the lower rotating mass of an EV(Wheels + Stator vs Wheels + Drivetrain + Engine + Flywheel, etc) means that they handle *really* well in low traction situations. Even more than our Outback, which is saying something. A couple people have measured the reaction time somewhere into 5-10ms range. All I know is I can stomp on the pedal on a really wet road and the car doesn't even shimmy, just goes straight.

 

[sd455dan]

The St. Paul guy. The Volt isn't an EV, it is a hybrid.

Well Gm does not like to call it a hybrid,.. more accurately an- extended range electric vehicle. ( SAE does consider it a plug in hybrid)

Which the Vid does show (If the gas tank has fuel in it) once the temp drops below about 26 degrees.

There are more than a few short commute owners who have only had the engine run to keep from having the fuel go bad in warmer climates.

Apparently some Volt owners have run with no gas at all, in areas where no gas is easily available
and they will run with No gas at all- but set a PPR (propulsion power reduced and add fuel) message at power up.
A quick check of owner stats on Volt Stats.net has 1 owner who has exceed 130000 miles per gallon, that is about as close to being a full electric -at least as far as actual use as it gets.

It looks like the Volt did work pretty well for the vid poster

 

[Egon]

Why should we over regulate industry here and drive jobs away to 3rd world countries without pollution controls, employee benefits or any regard for safety ?

The Brownies like profit.

 

[hawkeye08]

We need to continue to innovate, the problem is, when a product is pushed, it normally is because someone is making a bundle of money (often from subsidies or grants or ??), not so much as the technology is good. History shows that any decent improvement in ICE is quickly shut down by big oil (yes, I believe that conspiracy theory). I think we all agree that we could do much better at using the energy in a gallon of gas/diesel.

 

[jmc]

Somewhat OT, but some Prius trivia- I don't know if this is well known but a 2006 Prius I know pumps the coolant into an insulated container right after turning off the engine. (No sense of heating it up again if you restart it soon enough.) They probably do this on pure EVs too. I wonder how many other unmentioned efficiencies are built into it.

 

[buickanddeere]

I would agree that there are parts of the US and many places in Canada where EV would be of limited use during the winter and therefore not a reliable only vehicle, but, the Mason Dixon line is too far south to draw that line. EVs live quite happily in Boston for example. I wouldn't blink at owning one in Philadelphia or NYC either. It's really the upper midwest that has weather and distance to travel characteristics that argue against EV (but hybrids still fine). Even in Minneapolis, if someone used their vehicle primarily for commuting (not driving to Chicago or Denver), and EV would be fine in the winter time. Also, the entire west coast up to and beyond Vancouver would be fine. Maine up to Portland would be no issue. Not so sure about Bangor or north of there.

It is really a combination of expected weather, travel distance/range needs and taking into account that in very cold temperatures the usual range is cut in half that should determine whether EV makes sense for a given northern location. And, as lithium battery density continues to rise, that "Mason Dixon EV" line will continue to move northwards.

Bottom line, there are advantages and disadvantages to EV/hybrid just as there are for diesel or gas. Know your needs and make a good choice. But don't think that your choice will have much effect on whether or not EV/hybrid will continue to grow market share. Your great grandkids might well grow up considering passenger vehicles with pure ICE powertrains the same way we think of the horse and buggy. Cute but from a bygone era.

EV will always lack the energy density and the fill time of an ICE vehicle. Unless the Almighty re-writes the periodic table and adds some new elements. Some Lithium derivative is energy dense as mobile batteries will ever get.

 

[buickanddeere]

Well Gm does not like to call it a hybrid,.. more accurately an- extended range electric vehicle. ( SAE does consider it a plug in hybrid)

Which the Vid does show (If the gas tank has fuel in it) once the temp drops below about 26 degrees.

There are more than a few short commute owners who have only had the engine run to keep from having the fuel go bad in warmer climates.

Apparently some Volt owners have run with no gas at all, in areas where no gas is easily available
and they will run with No gas at all- but set a PPR (propulsion power reduced and add fuel) message at power up.
A quick check of owner stats on Volt Stats.net has 1 owner who has exceed 130000 miles per gallon, that is about as close to being a full electric -at least as far as actual use as it gets.

It looks like the Volt did work pretty well for the vid poster

These all electric Volt drivers also tend to call for vehicle assistance and taxi cabs more than Volt drivers that keep gasoline in the tank.