Electrical Question

   / Electrical Question #21  
I have a similar setup to one of my sheds.Just 12/2 run 100ft to a breaker box mounted in the shed with a 8ft ground rod I was told I needed attached to the metal breaker box.Threw the bonding screw away .Is this safe like this?
 
   / Electrical Question #22  
hilld said:
I am pretty sure that by code the sub panel needs to be grounded back to the main panel, only a main panel can have the ground rod attached to the ground bus. Otherwise you would have a ground loop (bad things can happen).

This is the way it was explained to me by my electrician friend, when I tried to hook my old barn up to my new barn (new 200A service there), I was going to ground the old barn using the existing ground rods and he told me that was a big NO NO. So, I ran 2G wire (2 hots, 1 N, 1 G) for a 100A subpanel.

You might want to check the NEC book to make 100% sure. If you do go the 10/2 route, you will have to put colored tape on the white wire as it is no longer a neutral wire, put something like red electrical tape on both ends. Personally I would just run the 10/3 or something bigger depending on your load requirements.

Derek
You might be right I have to look it up in my book, now I'm just curious
 
   / Electrical Question #23  
Timber said:
I see I have to consult the big book on code but I'm sure the ground rod at the sub panel is the neutral. Even if you cut into the cable in the ground it will trip out at the main panel because your feed to a sub panel starts at a breaker that is grounded. That said if you reach down and grab the cable regardless if it 10/3 or 10/2 with a bare hand your gona take the hit. same with your grounded compressor. Electricity will take the shortest path to ground. in this scenario that would be you, also if I may add if you hit a cable and grab it with a bare hand Shame is on You. You are correct that lightning will follow this path but that is not the only reason to ground your panel. In order for electricity to work properly in the US anyway neutral/ground is designed in all are tools, appliances, and ex cetera

I believe you misunderstood the point of my post. Please read it again. My example was not about cutting the power feeding the building. Ever notice that there are THREE slots on a recepticle; The one on the left is grounded, the one on the right is hot,and the bottom one is grounding.
 
   / Electrical Question #24  
mudcat said:
I believe you misunderstood the point of my post. Please read it again. My example was not about cutting the power feeding the building. Ever notice that there are THREE slots on a recepticle; The one on the left is grounded, the one on the right is hot,and the bottom one is grounding.
LOL you getting testy with me, Hold on I know I have a can of WOOP_*** around hear somewhere. LOL I have to consult the book because I simply can't remember. There is code and that is the law. there really is no dispute over that. Hey I admit I could be wrong, I know a lot of things just not everything, well almost everything LOL
 
   / Electrical Question #25  
bones1 said:
I have a similar setup to one of my sheds.Just 12/2 run 100ft to a breaker box mounted in the shed with a 8ft ground rod I was told I needed attached to the metal breaker box.Threw the bonding screw away .Is this safe like this?

No. It is not safe.
 
   / Electrical Question #26  
I think I might have found the answer. It appears that a seperate ground rod is required at the other building, however, a 3 conductor + ground service feed must be used.

Here is a diagram of the particular section of the NEC.

xenf2.gif




The following text is quoted from: http://www.iaei.org/subscriber/magazine/03_f/03_f_threechiefs.htm

Subpanel located in or on a building or structure separate from the service equipment
Section 250.32(B), Grounded Systems, contains provisions which result in two different ways to connect grounding and bonding conductors at a subpanel located in or on a building or structure supplied from a separate building or structure. Figure 2 illustrates 250.32(B)(1), the first way to wire a subpanel. The following are key points for this installation:
1. The subpanel is located in or on a building or structure supplied from a separate building or structure.
2. The subpanel is supplied by a three-wire plus ground feeder (two ungrounded (hot) conductors, one grounded [neutral] conductor and one equipment grounding conductor).
3. The neutral bus is isolated from the subpanel by insulating material.
4. A grounding electrode is required. Existing electrodes must be bonded to the equipment grounding terminal bar by a grounding electrode conductor sized according to Table 250.66 and based on the largest ungrounded (hot) conductor of the feeder (note the change from the 1999 NEC, where Table 250-122 was referenced).
5. Water and gas pipes are also required to be bonded to the equipment grounding terminal bar. See Sections 250-104(A)(3) and (B) for the bonding conductor size.
 
   / Electrical Question #27  
Timber said:
LOL you getting testy with me, Hold on I know I have a can of WOOP_*** around hear somewhere. LOL I have to consult the book because I simply can't remember. There is code and that is the law. there really is no dispute over that. Hey I admit I could be wrong, I know a lot of things just not everything, well almost everything LOL


You might want to read these:
Article 100 Definitions
Article 200 Use and Identification of grounded conductors
Article 300 Wiring methods
Article 250 Grounding
It is easy to misinterpret the code. But this is basic electricity. I just don't like someone being given unsafe advice.
 
   / Electrical Question #28  
hilld said:
I think I might have found the answer. It appears that a seperate ground rod is required at the other building, however, a 3 conductor + ground service feed must be used.

Here is a diagram of the particular section of the NEC.

xenf2.gif




The following text is quoted from: http://www.iaei.org/subscriber/magazine/03_f/03_f_threechiefs.htm

Subpanel located in or on a building or structure separate from the service equipment

Section 250.32(B), Grounded Systems, contains provisions which result in two different ways to connect grounding and bonding conductors at a subpanel located in or on a building or structure supplied from a separate building or structure. Figure 2 illustrates 250.32(B)(1), the first way to wire a subpanel. The following are key points for this installation:
1. The subpanel is located in or on a building or structure supplied from a separate building or structure.
2. The subpanel is supplied by a three-wire plus ground feeder (two ungrounded (hot) conductors, one grounded [neutral] conductor and one equipment grounding conductor).
3. The neutral bus is isolated from the subpanel by insulating material.
4. A grounding electrode is required. Existing electrodes must be bonded to the equipment grounding terminal bar by a grounding electrode conductor sized according to Table 250.66 and based on the largest ungrounded (hot) conductor of the feeder (note the change from the 1999 NEC, where Table 250-122 was referenced).
5. Water and gas pipes are also required to be bonded to the equipment grounding terminal bar. See Sections 250-104(A)(3) and (B) for the bonding conductor size.

THANK YOU!
 
   / Electrical Question
  • Thread Starter
#30  
Lot of info here for sure. The wire has been in the ground for several years, I hardly ever used the lights in shed since my wife took it over and filled it with storage boxes. Wire connected to light switch in garage. Disconnected for now. I just realized I have a second 12/3 wire buried (thats a total of 2 12/3 wires) which I was going to connect to a switch in garage for external light on old shed, never got it done for some reason. Will power off of 100 amp service in my garage. Guess they will start on shed this coming Tuesday if the rains are done for a while. I am leery about splicing below ground, may just leave the buried cable where it is for now (till copper gets even more rediculous) and power shed by generator (Y2K with bout 40 hours on it). I don't really plan on doing much down there. Keeping the tractor, four wheelers, mowers, etc outta the yard, clearing the junk outta the garage. All I 4c is lights, maybe a battery charger 4 dead bats, or small comp for flat tires. It will be gravel floor. Have a freezer and fridge in garage, 110 5 HP air compressor, no major power tools. Can I just run the lights and receptical in pole barn from a switch in the garage, maybe 2 switches.
 
   / Electrical Question #31  
My advice would be to find out what electrical code is for the circuit that you want to add and follow it. Otherwise you may give the insurance company a loop-hole should you have a claim at a later date.
 
   / Electrical Question #33  
Sounds like your needs and requirments are very minimal and you'd probably be fine with what you have. In your situation, I'd just buy the splice and run it to a disconnect box inisde your shed. The disconnect should be grounded, so I'd put in a ground rod and connect to it at the shed.

You should also mark the location of the splice. Put a rock or brick over it so it's level and smooth with the ground around it. This keeps it out of the way, but easy to find if you ever have a problem. Since there is always the possiblilty of something going wrong in the future. be sure to leave at least a foot of slack available if you need to resplice it again.

Otherwise, you should be fine with a few lights and an outlet. Just realize that you might trip your breaker if you try doing anything at night with the lights on. But since you have a garage to work in, that shouldn't be a problem.

Eddie
 
   / Electrical Question #34  
Threads like this are why I won't give electrical advice. Day after day of clean up not only after home owners but also after heat and air contracters and sometimes electricans I think advice is irresponseable, look at the exchange here on this thread!

Remember, just because it works doesn't mean its right or safe!!!
 
   / Electrical Question #35  
Right now I am having to replace wiring to A/C units that have been upgrade by H/A contractors that did not tell the customers that the 10-2 30A wiring to there units that call for 50A breakers and 37A Min. circuits are to small. These have been this way for about nine years each on two different customers with out problems until now. One was on a 30A and one was a 40A breaker.
 
   / Electrical Question #36  
sparkkky said:
Threads like this are why I won't give electrical advice. Day after day of clean up not only after home owners but also after heat and air contracters and sometimes electricans I think advice is irresponseable, look at the exchange here on this thread!

Remember, just because it works doesn't mean its right or safe!!!

DITTO!
 
   / Electrical Question
  • Thread Starter
#37  
Materials delivered today, construction starts tomorrow. This is gonna be a lot nicer than I thought. Was a want ad special ran by Sturdibuilt out of Charleston. Ill. 3 12 rafters on 8 ft, 6x6 posts, 8X10 slider and walk in, for 6100 total. I just wanted something to clear out the garage and get the toys out of yard. I may power it up right. My link: http://www.elec-toolbox.com/calculators/voltdrop.htm: that I got off of here isn't working for some reason. Menards having a 17% off sale this weekend for what ever fits in a shopping bag. Will a roll of wire and fit in there? Thanks to all of you. I def respect electricity and still leary bout in ground splice. I got one of them subsoilers to bury my new Dish cable. Should do a bang up job for new power line also. Some work for CUT too. Thanks again for all your wisdom.
 
   / Electrical Question #38  
FarmTracRay,
I think you're on the right track to install a larger service to your shed only because power requirements grow as time passes.

Your 12/3 feeder certainly would have provided lights and a couple recepticles but you'll be happier in the future WHEN your demand increases.

As has been stated, I would be hesitant to install a service to a building without a permit. Should something happen with the wiring, your insurance company is going to look here first. There's no way I could replace the things I've spent a lifetime acquiring in a reasonable time. Permits are cheap insurance and the inspector will be more than happy to help you do a proper installation for your county/state.

Sparkkky, you ever been overseas? I seen S*** that would make you run. Pieces of wood used to "isolate" uninsulated taps in open xfmr secondaries. How about a buzz box that was nothing more than a small oil filled xfmr with an open top, smoking to beat He**, and the welder had a broken piece of glass from an old hood that he covered one eye with.
 

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