Engine siezed

[quicksandfarmer]

I was bush-hogging today with my Jinma 354 and I ran over a log and the engine stalled. When I went to restart it it wouldn't start, the starter doesn't even spin it just clunks, although the ammeter is pinned. I did a quick check, oil level is OK, and I made sure the PTO was disengaged but still no go.

What should I check next? Any thoughts about the possibilities?

Thanks.

 

[schmalts]

Disengage the PTO, and put the trans in nuetral. Then try it. If no go, take a socket and ratchet and try to turn the engine over with the crank pulley bolt. Turn it fairly slow so there is no danger of it trying to start. If no go... get back to us because something has gone bad. If you can turn the engine by hand with the ratchet you just had a case of bad timeing and your started crapped out, or your starting system wiring has a fault.

 

[irwin]

Disengage the PTO, and put the trans in nuetral. Then try it. If no go, take a socket and ratchet and try to turn the engine over with the crank pulley bolt. Turn it fairly slow so there is no danger of it trying to start. If no go... get back to us because something has gone bad. If you can turn the engine by hand with the ratchet you just had a case of bad timeing and your started crapped out, or your starting system wiring has a fault.

yep, first gotta make sure the engine will turn over before you do anything else, perhaps the log hit something like a wire connection to starter or solenoid? start with the basic checks, starter wires are good and tight, engine will turn, nothing damaged from external contact. If that checks out tap the starter and try again, if still no go .........

 

[quicksandfarmer]

OK, I've had a little time to think. I'm going to think out loud a little here because it's dark now.

I see three possibilities. One is that the starter motor is not working. Another is that something external to the engine is stuck. The third is that something internal to the engine is stuck.

The starter motor is certainly pulling a lot of current -- the dash lights dim and the ammeter goes all the way over. But I guess I should verify that the engine can't be turned manually.

I know that for some engines, manually turning them backwards can cause the timing belt to slip. Does anyone know if this is a problem with the Jinma engine? I don't know which way the engine turns, I think it's clockwise as viewed from the front looking back. In the archives someone recommended trying the engine forward and backwards. Do you think that's a good idea?

I don't have a wrench that will fit on the crank pulley. Any thoughts on the next best way of turning it over? I was thinking of jacking up a rear wheel and putting the engine in 4H and turning the wheel.

In terms of something external, I thought that the clutch might be frozen so I made sure that the PTO and the transmission were disengaged and I could move them freely. So unless the clutch and transmission failed together I can rule that out for now. I'm thinking I need to check the water pump, alternator and starter pinion to make sure they're not jammed. It could also be the hydraulic pump, which I have no idea how to check. Anything else I'm missing?

What I most fear -- and because I understand it least -- is that the engine has an internal problem. (As an aside, it's human nature to be most suspicious of what you fear most and understand least, which is why my immediate conclusion was that the engine was seized.) Reading the archives, it seems like there are lots of things that could make an engine jam -- bearings, pistons, valves. I understand that sometimes you can see a failed valve with the valve cover removed. Any other thoughts for simple checks once I've eliminated the outside of the engine? I'm probably out of my league at that point, but it's good to be able to pin things down.

It doesn't help that the ground where I parked is covered with poison ivy.

And on top of everything else I misspelled "seized" ... Just not my day.

Thanks everyone for your help.

 

[psj12]

You could remove the starter and use a pry bar or large screwdriver to turn the flywheel gear one or two teeth at a time. DO NOT TRY TURNING BY THE FAN. If the engine were to fire it would severly injure you. Doing this would also allow you to inspect your starter. Additionally put everything in nuetral and dissengage the PTO. You may also try pushing in on the clutch while turning.
If the engine still does not turn try removing the hydraulic pump and trying again. Opening the compression relief will help in the effort needed to turn the engine over.
The engine should not be damaged if turned a couple of revolutions backward as they do not have timing belts they use gear trains.

 

[bluechip]

All great advice so far. Not that it matters at this point, but is this a 3 cyl TY395 or 4 cy Y485 engine? Also I'm courious what type of "protection" you are running on your brush mower, shear bolt or slip clutch? if bolt did it shear?
If not is it the proper grade of bolt (no bars on the head of the bolt)?

The full load on the ammeter when you try the starter is only indicating that the solenoid coil is pulling heavily. the starter motor gets its juice direct from the battery and is not metered. You could try jumping across the solenoid with a screw driver, if you do be ready for a big spark and use proper caution. touch an old screw driver (the arc will be strong enough to damage it) and breifly bridge the lead where the batter cable is attached to the lug across the solenoid from it that is attached to the motor itself. IF the bendix is not engaged (stuck in the flywheel) the engine will not crank but the starter motor should spin freely, but if the bendix is in the flywheel, the engine COULD crank (be nice if it did) so be SURE you are in NEUTRAL if you chose to try this...at your own risk of course.

I'll concur that if you turn the engine backward, you will not hurt anything. in fact if you cannot move the engine one way I would try the other.

The engine could seize by the rings galling into the cylinder (wont turn either way) , a rod breaking and wedging itself somewhere (might turn one way) or... the best of the internal causes...fluid on top of the piston (will turn one way but not the other). In the later case, you may want to remove the glow plugs (if equipped) or injectors and try again. I don't think the fuel system could pump enough diesel to fill a cylinder to the point of hydrolocking, but a blown head gasket could.

Best of luck, hope it just fires up when it is all cooled down.

 

[Egon]

Jacking up and trying to turn one rear wheel may be the way to go. Its easy to do and tells you real quick if the motor will turn over. Towing the tractor may be another option.

 

[Soundguy]

I got an idea!! If you have any hyd remotes or quick disconnect line from the hydro pump.. check them.. unhook and reseat.. you may have had a line opop off or unseat and HYD lock the pump.. which is locking the engine. Don't try to turn her over untill you check this or you risk damage to your hydro pump.

I still think a hydro pump with a QD in line with it before a relief is a bad idea.. even if it is done to save money.. yet this is a COMMON problem on the chinese units...

good luck

Soundguy

 

[quicksandfarmer]

All great advice so far. Not that it matters at this point, but is this a 3 cyl TY395 or 4 cy Y485 engine? Also I'm courious what type of "protection" you are running on your brush mower, shear bolt or slip clutch? if bolt did it shear?
If not is it the proper grade of bolt (no bars on the head of the bolt)?

It's a 4-cylinder.

The mower has a shear pin. It's the one that came with it, I bought the mower new and I've never replaced it. I will verify that it has no bars.

 

[bjr]

I'm not tryin' to be a smart ***** here, but guy, you're gonna need some tools if you are gonna own a tractor. Go visit Harbor Freight depending on what might already have a hundred dollars will set up with at least the minimal working stuff and don't forget a least a 3lbs hammer. You'll do well reading this message board for advisej, but you'll have to be able to perform the work, or, call a mobile mechanic, your call. bjr

 

[quicksandfarmer]

Best of luck, hope it just fires up when it is all cooled down.

Well....

After a restless night filled with thoughts of expensive repairs and the logistics of getting the tractor out of the field and to a mechanic, I trudged out there with a satchel full of tools and my tractor jack, ready to try everything that's been suggested. Just for kicks I thought I'd try the starter one more time. Bingo, it roared to life!

It turns out it wasn't a log a ran over, but a rock the size of a breadbox that was stuck under the mower.

It just goes to show, the human tendency is to suspect that which we fear most and understand least!

I think now I need to start a thread with the title, "balky starter."

Thanks to everyone for helping me through this.

 

[Egon]

Neat!

He-He-He.

 

[bluechip]

I have learned to expect the worst, that way I am never disappointed!

by that I mean that things normally turn out better then expected. On the other hand, hoping for the best often does lead to dissapointment. So does that make me an Pessimist, optimist or just an experienced chinese tractor dealer?

 

[3RRL]

Well, that is great news she started up again for you. You got to be happy about that.

For future reference, whenever turning the engine over,
- make sure the key is off or out of the ignition switch
- always turn the fuel petcock off
- use a pair of vise grips to hold the "kill switch" back
- use the decompression lever and keep it open
- make sure the tractor is in neutral
- make sure everything else is in neutral
- any implements disconnected too

If you can't get to the crank pulley bolt, you could tighten the alternator belt and use that bolt.
To determine the engine rotation if you're not sure, look at the radiator fan to wee which way the blades go.
Rotating the engine backwards shouldn't hurt it.
BTW, I've had mine run backwards before!

 

[32Ford]

In the original post, after hitting something and stalling the motor, the Bush Hog was disengaged with the PTO and the motor would not turn over. Why would the motor start after discovering a rock was jammed under the bush hog. Again, the PTO was not engaged. Just curious.

 

[Soundguy]

Bad starter? going south?

soundguy

 

[Bob Rooks]

FYI:
All reciprocating internal combustion engines (two and four stroke cycle gasoline, diesel, natural gas, etc.) are all designed for left-hand rotation (looking at the flywheel). The only exceptions are right-hand rotation engines designed for marine and special applications. All electric motors are wired for right-hand rotation, except for special applications.

 

[quicksandfarmer]

In the original post, after hitting something and stalling the motor, the Bush Hog was disengaged with the PTO and the motor would not turn over. Why would the motor start after discovering a rock was jammed under the bush hog. Again, the PTO was not engaged. Just curious.

A string of coincidences, I'm sure. I actually wasn't able to discover the rock until after I had started the engine and was able to lift the mower, so moving the rock was not the solution to the problem.

While I'm not 100% positive what happened, I'm pretty confident that the real problem was with my starter or solenoid. However, when I hit that rock and the engine stalled, the resulting din sounded like I had done something really, really bad to the tractor. When the starter coincidentally picked that moment not to turn over -- for the first time ever or since -- I jumped to the conclusion that I had indeed done something really, really bad to the tractor.

What I don't get is how sitting in a field overnight fixed my starter. The only thing I can think is that it was hot when I was mowing, and I had been out for a few hours. Right after I stalled a thunderstorm rolled in--on top of everthing else I got soaked walking home. The next morning was quite a bit cooler, and it hasn't been that hot since then. I'm wondering if something in my starting system doesn't like to get too hot.

 

[greg_g]

One of the starter bolts on that engine is sort of obscured between the starter housing and the block. There's a chance it could be loose, which can change the geometry of how the pinion gear engages the flywheel teeth. After killing the engine, your first attempt to restart could have jammed the pinion gear into the flywheel teeth. Cooling down overnight may have shrunk the metal to the point where the flywheel let go of the pinion, to the point where the return spring pulled it back into the starter.

So just to cover all the bases, take a socket set out to the tractor and tighten down the two bolts that hold the starter to the bellhousing. Not positive, but I think you can use either a 5/8" or 17mm socket. But I do remember that you'll need about a 6 inch socket extension to get at the back one. Be careful with the ratchet around the electrical contacts.

//greg//

 

[32Ford]

A string of coincidences, I'm sure. I actually wasn't able to discover the rock until after I had started the engine and was able to lift the mower, so moving the rock was not the solution to the problem.

While I'm not 100% positive what happened, I'm pretty confident that the real problem was with my starter or solenoid. However, when I hit that rock and the engine stalled, the resulting din sounded like I had done something really, really bad to the tractor. When the starter coincidentally picked that moment not to turn over -- for the first time ever or since -- I jumped to the conclusion that I had indeed done something really, really bad to the tractor.

What I don't get is how sitting in a field overnight fixed my starter. The only thing I can think is that it was hot when I was mowing, and I had been out for a few hours. Right after I stalled a thunderstorm rolled in--on top of everthing else I got soaked walking home. The next morning was quite a bit cooler, and it hasn't been that hot since then. I'm wondering if something in my starting system doesn't like to get too hot.

I have followed your post with allot of interest. I did something very similiar to what happened to you. I have a 30HP Farmtrac tractor and the first day I used it with a rototiller the tiller locked up and stalled the tractor. Stopped it in a split second. The PTO shaft has a slip clutch which apparently did not function correctly. Anyway, when this happened all sorts of catastrophic damage went thru my mind, bent crankshaft, broken tranny gears, broken PTO,etc. I did not think of anything positive. I turned off the PTO and tried starting it. It started, I was able to drive it. Everything seemed to work OK.
I have since put on 30 hours but anytime I hear a strange sound I think it is because of this one incident. I don't think any damage was done . I know exactly what you felt when you described your incident. Hope your tractor continues to work fine.