Engineers in Knoxville?

[Reg]

Sorry
A CAD program is nothing more than a electronic drafting board. It makes the process of drawing precisely measured lines between points faster and easier than pencil and paper. It also speed repetitive taske, such as drawing multiple parallel beams in a floor or wall structure. It also makes changes far easier and neater as only the portion of a drawing that needs changes need be altered. Massive changes on paper can require that the entire page be re-drawn. Cad also makes the rendering of the finished product in 3 dimensions, colors, and even animated "walk thru" movies easier.

The knowledge of strength of materials and the codes to which they must be applied rests with the engineer who directs how the lines are to be drawn... There is some software out there that make some of the strength and structural analysis easier, but ultimately the application rests with the engineer. That is why it takes many years of study and application to get that PE certificate.

I agree, the ~$69 "Home Designer" level of faux CAD programs do about what you described.
I was HOPING that a Pro level program with a materials package had been used.
I see no good reason why a program at the level of AutoCAD would NOT include code and materials packages as design rules.

Anyway, back to the problem at hand;
I agree with the poster that said the inspector might just be finding an acceptable way of saying that he won't approve what he doesn't understand.
Heck, the trouble framers went through when timber framing started to come back.
"Wall studs must be on 16 inch centers" and "Floor joists can't be THAT far apart" was about all they heard for a while.

I like the suggestion of a huge circular wagon wheel with the chandelier cord dropped through the middle - that could become a FEATURE if you make it prominent, instead of a blemish that you would probably want to try and hide.

 

[Sigarms]

Well, I'm a PE, and my county inspectors have trumped me several times

I sincerely find that surprising.

When the inspector saw this he failed the general structure in that area.
He told us that if we would get a PE stamp, that would overide his approval.

This is what I've encountered on the commercial HVAC side per equipment instals.

Usually, I've also found that if you follow the manufacturers instructions on commercial equipment, they (inspections) will let it pass as well. However, usually the equipment manufacturer covers their butt by letting you know that all local codes must be met (catch 22 isn't it?). UL ratings are another story.

I don't think this is something the GC should pay for. He agreed to build what the plans showed for a price. His expertise is not in engineering, it is in building

I a pretty dumb guy and people who know me will tell you sometimes I ask too many questions. If the GC saw that the prints weren't stamped, with the kind of time and money invested in this job, don't you think the GC should of asked "who signed off of these plans" or "what happens if this dosen't meet code?" That would just be covering your butt.

I would also like to think that someone in their trade has a basic understanding of most of the local codes that directly relate to their business. If there was something on the plans that would raise questions, I'd ask before you commit to the job. Heck, in my line of work, there are mulitple code changes on the same item depending on what county you do work in (and God forbid if you call the head State office to get an "official ruling" and the reason why).

Who knows, perhaps this builder has built 20 of these types of structures that have passed previous inspections. Remember however, that Richard mentions

Seems the inspector was out for what I guess we'd call the rough in inspection?

Regardless... during this visit he evidently made mention of the beam(s) he wanted in the kitchen. Our builder told us of this conversation but said essentially, he thought he knew how they could make everyone happy.

The GC wasn't blindsided by this issue. This issue was made known during the rough in inspection, when it should be noted and taken care of (and any additional costs for the job should of been addressed at that point in time).

I might of missed it, but exactly what was the idea that the GC had that would make everyone happy other than getting a PE stamp?

Apparetnly the GC thought wrong because also mentioned is

Inspector came out for a final inspection (a week ago) and today at 5:30 my builder says "oh, the inspector says he wants a beam "here" (points) and of course "here" will put a beam right through the wifes chandelier"

The question I would have for the GC is where was the lack of communication? If the GC thought he could please everyone, did he talk to the inspector before the final as to what could be done? (also nice that the GC took a week to let Richard know that the job wouldn't pass).

Remember

The inspector said he would accept a letter by an engineer that the current design is ok, otherwise he wants the beam.

As mentioned, this inspector dosen't seem like a hard guy to deal with (not that it matters) doing his job (it's been mentioned to me that some inspectors get their jobs by being buddies with the right people, and like their job only due to their "power", and if they make a mistake, will never admit to it). He (inpsector) let the GC know what would be required to "pass", and as mentioned, IMO, the inspector was just covering his butt while still letting the job continue as planned, which would make the homeowner happy.

By chance, if the GC didn't run anything by the inspector on what he (the GC) wanted to do to alter the inspectors requirements of a PE stamp of approval, if I was the inspector, the GC could be rubbing me the wrong way for not doing what he was told to do.

Fact is, sometimes you cannot please everyone you do work for, however, if you need to increase the quoted price on the job, you need to let the client know ASAP and the reasons why. Perhaps theres more to the story on the GC side, but so far, I'm missing it.

By the way Richard, from the pics of your land (for your upcoming geothermal job) and house, very nice place.

 

[SPYDERLK]

The inspector probably believes that the beam is necessary to [[[support the outward bending moments on the walls from the inclined roof panel sections. The same effect can be accomplished by using a ring beam around the entire periphery of the top of the cylindrical wall elements.]]] A laminated beam or better, an aluminum truss made in sections that could be bolted in place would also do the job. After the deal is done, you could theoretically use it somewhere else, like in your multi-story tractor shed, or maybe a model of the Tower of London where the wife could be kept against her will while she slavishly makes amends for her terrible misdeed. A turret gun mount would be an attractive addition, too.

Here is the answer to steer the inspector toward. Could be small enuf to be almost invisible - tensile cable - or a decorative build in. orr-r... Some large hose clamps around the outside.
larry

 

[Richard]

You removed members which were resisting lateral spreading in order to create this dramatic ceiling

Unless you're referring to the posiblity that another set of plans not in my hands indicate a cross support, then nothing was removed. Well..they removed some roofing to gain access to the trusses. They then tied into the trusses and this new roof covers the old roof.

Otherwise, the two original exterior walls are now the interior walls and the 4 "octagon" sides are addition.

Again, if you refer to the possiblity of a set of prints calling for beams, (which hasn't been verified) then disregard above, I misunderstood your reference point.

 

[Richard]

I agree, the ~$69 "Home Designer" level of faux CAD programs do about what you described.
I was HOPING that a Pro level program with a materials package had been used.

Looking at the guys website (which I can share if felt appropriate by all?)

Anyways under the "The Process" tab it says:

Construction Documents

Once the concept designs are approved, construction documents are prepared for the project. Drawings are prepared in ArchiCAD to assure the highest level of technical accuracy. When combined with the Log or Timber Frame Provider's and General Contractor's standard means and methods, the construction documents create a road map to a successfully completed home.

I've never heard of ArchiCAD.

 

[Richard]

By the way Richard, from the pics of your land (for your upcoming geothermal job) and house, very nice place.

Thank you. not sure yet the geothermal deal is going to work out. Wife is reluctant on talking to her father about perhaps buying some land for this use...however, she will talk to him about buying some land to square up our lot lines? (go figure)

We might end up with a simple replacement system... the saga should continue on today if I can (with or without her) meet up with her father.

Certainly doesn't hurt to discuss it.

 

[RonMar]

I agree, the ~$69 "Home Designer" level of faux CAD programs do about what you described.
I was HOPING that a Pro level program with a materials package had been used.
I see no good reason why a program at the level of AutoCAD would NOT include code and materials packages as design rules..

I have been using various versions of Autocad for more than 10 years now, and I am sorry to say it has no such features... It is a rendering tool, pure and simple, well not so simple. Any application of codes and structural information are from the designers head as he positions the points and lines in the CAD program, just the same as it has always been since man first picked up a piece of coal to sketch out that new patio addition on the cave wall

With all the varying structural requirements and applications, as well as regulations worldwide, making a program that could draw AND apply these rules would be an almost impossible task, especially if you wanted it to be viable for more than a few weeks till the first of the constantly changing/evolving rule and material applications took place... That is why engineers make so much money, and are usually specialized to a particular field or a particular geographic region, as it takes a long tme to get familliar with a particular set of rules and environment. They must also relearn every new process and rule change as they occur, as they are responsible for their proper application...


As for the original problem, If your plans were not approved by an engineer or architect(indicated by their stamp and signature) you don't have a leg to stand on. Either get one to review and sign off the plans, then argue with the inspector about approval, or do exactly what the inspector says. The second option will probably be the least expensive as the engineering analysis may direct such a beam or support structure be added anyway. You will have to do the work, AND pay for the engineers fees. Quite frankly, if these plans havn't been reviewed by an engineer, then they probably should be. The inspector saying a beam is needed in a particular location is all fine and good, but is he an engineer? Is this ALL that is needed for the structure to be safe? You gotta live there mate, you really want to be worrying about your lovely open air ceiling structure comming down around your ears some dark and stormy night?

Good luck

 

[Sigarms]

Either get one to review and sign off the plans, then argue with the inspector about approval, or do exactly what the inspector says

Uhm...The inspector said if Richard gets a PE stamp, he's good to go, end of story.

The inspector saying a beam is needed in a particular location is all fine and good, but is he an engineer?

Probably not, however, thats why he wants an engineer to sign off on the plans. As mentioned, to cover his butt. Bottom line, for whatever reason, the inspector does not think the stucture is safe. HOWEVER, the inspector is willing to let someone "smarter" than himself to say the structure built is sound, and will let it pass. Can't ask for anything more than that.

Richard is lucky IMO to be dealing with such a reasonable inspector.

have been using various versions of Autocad for more than 10 years now, and I am sorry to say it has no such features... It is a rendering tool, pure and simple, well not so simple. Any application of codes and structural information are from the designers head as he positions the points and lines in the CAD program, just the same as it has always been since man first picked up a piece of coal to sketch out that new patio addition on the cave wall

As mentioned, I'm a dummy. Computers are great, however, at least for myself, trying to build a structure on a computer is kind of like playing these hi tech wargames on a computer. It may be fun, but it's not real life (God, starting to sould like my old man)

 

[buckeyefarmer]

This is not a standard thing, I would recommend having a structural engineer take a look at it. In this case I don't blame the inspector.

Many area's don't require PE or Arch stamps for building permits, and I support this. If you stick with basic box designs, use the right material for the spans, there really is no need for a PE to get involved, the inspector see's this every day and knows what is right. However, in special cases such as this, or cantilevers over 2 feet as someone else mentioned, then a PE should look at it. In my area, trusses are required to have a PE stamp on them, but my inspectors have never asked to see the stamp.

 

[Richard]

A modest update: I found & contacted a guy I met 9/10 years ago. He teaches archetecture at UT here in Knoxville and is a structural engineer!

Made sure to tell him I'm willing to pay for services so he didn't think I was trying to pull a smooth one on him.

Sent him some pictures and some of his questions were:

1. Is there a collar on the outside of the cathedreal? (no)
2. Are the top plates lapped? (don't think so)
3. How long is the ceiling beam that ties into existing roof? (finding out)
4. Was the roof cut out to open more exposed roof? (unsure on his exact question)

Anyways, with the pictures I sent him he felt 80-90% sure that he could certify it as not needing the collar and set the inspector at ease. I must admit, not needing a collar isn't necessarily the same as needing an internal brace (or from his perspective, maybe it is?)

Regardless.... he seems fairly comfortable with what he's seen from a cursory viewpoint. Now we're playing phone tag to discuss anything further.

Bottom line, although it's certainly possible I'll need a support, I'm glad he seems to be thinking we're ok.

Oh...one of his major points was "The pictures you sent are very informative. The inspector is correct to be concerned because a cathedrial ceiling with no collar beam does have a tendency to move the walls outward under what we call outward thrust. The load with snow etc. is making a large horizontal force on the top of the wall in addition to the vertical support load.

From what I see in the pictures you have a very different situation. The walls making the octagon end are short enough that the 'outward thrust' will not push your walls out as they are short and then 'tied back' by the angled walls"