EV owners of today and tomorrow

[WinterDeere]

Another thread tanked by politics.

I have my own thoughts, and actually an inclination to defend wawajake's national pride, as everyone else is piling onto him. But this is a discussion for another place.

 

[Grumpycat]

Just as many lease cars, while many others can't imagine ever doing that... different strokes for different folks. There is definitely some sector of the market that is more interest in just getting back on the road, than worrying about cost, or whether the battery they're accepting has flaws or damage their original did not.

I remember the subsidized $99/month leases of Fiat e500 and Nissan LEAF in California to get enough clean air credits to continue selling conventional ICE products.

At one time wholesale auction lots were overflowing with e500 and LEAF 2 year old cars off-lease going begging for $4900 and $9000.

So how much is China/NIO subsidizing battery swap costs? You are old and smart enough to have observed this is S.O.P. for China to subsidize an industry to wipe out foreign production then dominate? Should witness what they are doing in the LiFePO4 market.

 

[California]

Another thread tanked by politics.

I have my own thoughts, and actually an inclination to defend wawajake's national pride, as everyone else is piling onto him. But this is a discussion for another place.

It's unfortunate that politics has become a wedge driving us apart.

But any sort of planning presently, has to consider the political environment in order to be reality-based planning.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

(Skip to the last story at 7:25)

Recycling lithium ion EV batteries has been retarded by a few years because the batteries are lasting 20% longer than they expected.

So the recyclers are not getting the number of batteries as fast as they anticipated to reclaim the metals. Remember with lithium ion batteries the materials are not consumed like a tank of gas that you put in a ICE vehicle but they're still there and you recycle them like you can recycle lead acid batteries.

 

[wawajake]

......Remember with lithium ion batteries the materials are not consumed like a tank of gas that you put in a ICE vehicle but they're still there and you recycle them like you can recycle lead acid batteries.

Except lets not gloss over that the electricity used to charge the majority of EV cars in the world consume either natural gas or coal or uranuim . With some countries cleaner than others. China being low on the totem pole with their hundreds of coal plants . And of course the mined raw materials used to make the batteries require all sorts of diesel and electricity to run that mining equipment. And given the downfall of manufacturers like Tesla these days being replaced by Chinese manufacturers ( using coal for their factories) ....the green zealots around the world that are shunning Tesla are just sending the manufacturing to more unclean coal consuming countries like China. Quite the conundrum, might as well stick to ICE maybe .

 

[Grumpycat]

Except lets not gloss over that the electricity used to charge the majority of EV cars in the world consume either natural gas or coal or uranuim .

Boo hoo hoo!

One can produce electricity from other sources easier than one can produce gasoline from sources other than crude oil.

And then there is the inconvenient fact we use less resources, less labor, to produce sufficient electrical energy to propel an EV per mile than with hydrocarbons. Proof? The Almighty Dollar. No free man works for free. Every step in the supply chain demands to be justly compensated. The end price to the consumer accurately represents consumption.

With some countries cleaner than others. China being low on the totem pole with their hundreds of coal plants .

China choses to defecate in their own bed. If you don't like it then you should not have allowed globalists to gift markets to the 3rd world and do nothing when China moved in.

And of course the mined raw materials used to make the batteries require all sorts of diesel and electricity to run that mining equipment.

All accounted for in the final price charged the end consumer.

Then again it is terribly inconvenient to your argument to learn most mining is electric. It costs less. It is clean under ground in the mines.

And given the downfall of manufacturers like Tesla these days being replaced by Chinese manufacturers ( using coal for their factories) ....the green zealots around the world that are shunning Tesla are just sending the manufacturing to more unclean coal consuming countries like China. Quite the conundrum, might as well stick to ICE maybe .

China China China!

 

[wawajake]

Boo hoo hoo!

One can produce electricity from other sources w than one can produce gasoline from sources other than crude oil.

And then there is the inconvenient fact we use less resources, less labor, to produce sufficient electrical energy to propel an EV per mile than with hydrocarbons. Proof? The Almighty Dollar. No free man works for free. Every step in the supply chain demands to be justly compensated. The end price to the consumer accurately represents consumption.


China choses to defecate in their own bed. If you don't like it then you should not have allowed globalists to gift markets to the 3rd world and do nothing when China moved in.


All accounted for in the final price charged the end consumer.

Then again it is terribly inconvenient to your argument to learn most mining is electric. It costs less. It is clean under ground in the mines.


China China China!

Verbal diarrhea Grumpy.....and your expertise about mining around the world is severely lacking....i worked for 12 yrs underground in uranuim mines , my brotherinlaws both work in mines in Canada, one nickel, one gold....all primarily diesel. The lowest cost open pit mines ( for the materials used for EVs ) around the world will be diesel or coal generated electric equipment. ......but nice try. As for China.....somehow you blaming me ( or my country ) for letting China to become dominant in this world is extremely hypocritical given the growth of trade the USA has with them . The 30 million consumers versus the 320 million you have buying Chinese crap on Amazon, or from Walmart....but nice try at deflection.......but then I guess seeing the value of your Tesla investment and being worried where to park it so it won't get keyed has you grumpier than usual.

 

[shooterdon]

Your hardness of heart is noted. It seems it is a trend these days. But since you want to continue on a political basis. I will too. I realize you are a former Canadian who many years ago struck out to make your fortune in the USA and that's fine.......however your vitriol to cut down anything Canadian, is obviously a inner demon to validate your choices in life. Meanwhile I am not too worried about the 99 % of us Canadians that in revived unity now will overcome the alienation and severe mistreating your Comrade Trump is placing on Canada Mexico and Europe. We are already banding together in trade talks to develop replacement markets between us . Example ....Already defense contracts for the 66 American F35 planes we were to buy are being reconsider to just the mandatory 16 the contract states and looking at buying the rest of the 50 jets from Europe . Our grocery stores across the continent have pivoted to Canadian and " anything but USA" sources easily. Tourist ( snowbirds for example ) are massively switching from Florida or Arizona....to Mexico, Cuba and Europe. And this " anything but USA" is all the fault of Comrade Trump, and the self imploding of your markets and the coming recession will be at his feet. It will take years for your aluminum and steel smelters to come online, years for car manufacturing to adjust to any tarrif world he clings to, years for your farmers to adjust to labour needs and impacts, ....and years ( maybe even a generation) for your former customer allies to pivot back to your products. Ideally your 50% of red voters will realize their leader is a tyrant mistake, with zero economic skills and your midterms will flush out some of the bad decisions. But meanwhile the world will move on much quicker than you expect, with much less need for the USA....and that's the way you wanted it. You can put away your guns in Europe you can capitulate to Putin, you can live in a caccoon of tarrifs and a 1920s economic plan for success, while the rest of us find success with 2025 economic plans.

I am a realist.

Leaving Canada was the best decision I have ever made. I have no need to justify it. I have no “inner demons “.

I do not want to see Canada become part of the US. That will destroy America.

I have pulled almost all of my investments out if Canada. I have lost confidence in my country of birth.

It is so bad, I have considered investing in Europe so not all my eggs are in America. Regrettably, I have a significant amount in my RRIF that I cannot pull out of Canada. I don’t see a bright future for Canada.

Canadians who believe they will win an economic war with the US are delusional or stupid.

 

[Grumpycat]

Verbal diarrhea Grumpy.....and your expertise about mining around the world is severely lacking....i worked for 12 yrs underground in uranuim mines , my brotherinlaws both work in mines in Canada, one nickel, one gold....all primarily diesel.

I just delivered materials to coal mines in Alabama for a couple summers. They used electric vehicles underground. 1970s.

The lowest cost open pit mines ( for the materials used for EVs ) around the world will be diesel or coal generated electric equipment. ......but nice try.

https://www.komatsu.com/en/products/electric-rope-shovels/4800xpc/#specifications

As for China.....somehow you blaming me ( or my country ) for letting China to become dominant in this world is extremely hypocritical given the growth of trade the USA has with them .

I'm blaming you for lack of reading comprehension. I said China was allowed to take over production in 3rd world countries our Benevolent Globalist Leaders gifted to the 3rd world in the misbegotten belief they would rise out of poverty. China has simply enslaved these peoples locking them into the poverty they were supposed to be able to use their exclusive access to markets to rise out of poverty.

The 30 million consumers versus the 320 million you have buying Chinese crap on Amazon, or from Walmart....but nice try at deflection.......but then I guess seeing the value of your Tesla investment and being worried where to park it so it won't get keyed has you grumpier than usual.

Is not I who is deflecting.

I own 16 shares of TSLA.

So you think keying Teslas is fair game?

Grumpy? Not at all! You provide great amusement! Not quite as good as seeing https://x.com/StephenM obliterate "journalists", but good for variety.

 

[BleedingOrange]

Big problem recycling batteries !

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