Experienced Deck Builders?

[EddieWalker]

If 6x6 posts sunk into the ground are not an option, and since you are building the deck so close to thee ground, I would try to avoid the cement blocks. I would lay treated 4x6's flat on the ground just like a skid, or even bury it to get the desired finished grade. I would put them in every four feet and then install my 2x6 treated joists on top of them every 2 feet. 18 inches is even better, but not really needed unless you have a really busy deck. Then I would use 2x6's for my decking. Nothing shrinks more then 5/4 lumber. Install it as tight together as you can and in a year, there is a half inch gap or more between them. If you are dead set on using 5/4 boards, make sure to make your joists are 16 inches on center and not 24 inches.

Never use nails on a deck. Be sure to get the old style screws. Not the new fancy ones with almost no threads on them that strip out half of the time you screw them into wood.

Old rule of thumb was to install your deck boards bark side up. This no longer applies since the modern treatments methods of the wood is so horrible that they will cup, curl, shrink and twist in just about every direction. Decide what side is the nicest looking and use that side up.

Do not stain or treat it for at least six months. There is so much moisture forced into each board that it will take that long to dry out. Rain doesn't penetrate the wood, so that doesn't matter, you need to make sure that the internal moisture is gone. If you stain or paint too soon, it will fail because of the moisture that comes out of the wood after you stain or paint.

Before staining or painting, go to Home Depot, or a rental yard, and rent a 1ft x2ft orbital sander that kind of looks like a floor polisher, and sand the deck smooth. Get twice as many sanding sheets then you think you will need. Get the supper aggressive grit. I think 24 is the roughest that they have. Get half a dozen of them. Then two that are in the 50 to 70 range. This isn't furniture, and that will give you a very nice, smooth finish. After sanding, then you can stain or paint it.

 

[EddieWalker]

I've built a lot of decks attached to homes, but last year I built a freestanding deck for our back yard. It's in a resource protection area near the waterline, so it couldn't be a permanent structure. I also wanted it low to the ground so it wouldn't obstruct views from our home and didn't require steps. I think it takes a little bit different approach if you want it low to the ground. So I did the math and ended up with 4x4 skids running one way and 2x4 framing (16" on center) running across. 5/4" deck boards on top. The skids are supported with concrete blocks dug in and leveled. It's extremely rigid and stiff, with zero bounce. I haven't had any settling, but it would be easy to jack the deck up and shim a block if needed. I can also move it elsewhere if I have to, although I don't plan to!

I went 12x12 and to me that is a minimum size for a deck if you want people to mill around and be able to place chairs. Here are some pics:

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Great pictures!!!! Well done.

 

[dalola]

I've built a lot of decks attached to homes, but last year I built a freestanding deck for our back yard. It's in a resource protection area near the waterline, so it couldn't be a permanent structure. I also wanted it low to the ground so it wouldn't obstruct views from our home and didn't require steps. I think it takes a little bit different approach if you want it low to the ground. So I did the math and ended up with 4x4 skids running one way and 2x4 framing (16" on center) running across. 5/4" deck boards on top. The skids are supported with concrete blocks dug in and leveled. It's extremely rigid and stiff, with zero bounce. I haven't had any settling, but it would be easy to jack the deck up and shim a block if needed. I can also move it elsewhere if I have to, although I don't plan to!

I went 12x12 and to me that is a minimum size for a deck if you want people to mill around and be able to place chairs.

Thanks s219, that's really close to my situation as well. I have a bit more slope, and more tree restrictions to dictate my size. But your method looks fantastic! Good to hear your finished deck is solid & functional. I think I will copy this format.

If 6x6 posts sunk into the ground are not an option, and since you are building the deck so close to thee ground, I would try to avoid the cement blocks. I would lay treated 4x6's flat on the ground just like a skid, or even bury it to get the desired finished grade. I would put them in every four feet and then install my 2x6 treated joists on top of them every 2 feet. 18 inches is even better, but not really needed unless you have a really busy deck. Then I would use 2x6's for my decking. Nothing shrinks more then 5/4 lumber. Install it as tight together as you can and in a year, there is a half inch gap or more between them. If you are dead set on using 5/4 boards, make sure to make your joists are 16 inches on center and not 24 inches.

Never use nails on a deck. Be sure to get the old style screws. Not the new fancy ones with almost no threads on them that strip out half of the time you screw them into wood.

Old rule of thumb was to install your deck boards bark side up. This no longer applies since the modern treatments methods of the wood is so horrible that they will cup, curl, shrink and twist in just about every direction. Decide what side is the nicest looking and use that side up.

Do not stain or treat it for at least six months. There is so much moisture forced into each board that it will take that long to dry out. Rain doesn't penetrate the wood, so that doesn't matter, you need to make sure that the internal moisture is gone. If you stain or paint too soon, it will fail because of the moisture that comes out of the wood after you stain or paint.

Before staining or painting, go to Home Depot, or a rental yard, and rent a 1ft x2ft orbital sander that kind of looks like a floor polisher, and sand the deck smooth. Get twice as many sanding sheets then you think you will need. Get the supper aggressive grit. I think 24 is the roughest that they have. Get half a dozen of them. Then two that are in the 50 to 70 range. This isn't furniture, and that will give you a very nice, smooth finish. After sanding, then you can stain or paint it.

Thanks for the tips! Some I can use, some not. Definitely like screws over nails.

 

[s219]

I was going to ask how you attached the joists to the skids, but then I saw the 2x4 blocks.

Yes, and those are mainly an attempt to make a better "toenail" type attachment, with nails properly 90 degrees across the grain in two directions instead of one direction on a 45. I really hate a standard toenail with the nail shooting 45 through the joist. I'll do a standard toenail if it's the only solution, but it's really a weak way to use a fastener in wood.

 

[PILOON]

The blocks Digging It showed are notched to accept the joists so I'd go with them.
Some crushes stone will help level things.
One thing I like doing is to cut strips of roofing membrane about 3" wide to cover the joists before decking as that greatly prevents joist rotting.*
If you build close to the ground it is a good idea to cover the area with geotextile to prevent growth of grasses and weeds.

ps, I built one as I describe 20 years ago and it is still just great, only greyed from age. It is a mere 10" above ground as the lady detested wet dew covered grass in the AM.
In fact I did 3 such installations.

* and as wood sometimes will do, replacing any rotted deck boards is feasible as the under structure will remain healthy as water will shed away from the joists.
(Got this trick from an old timer that cut strips of galvanized tin to protect his structure. I replaced only the decking 35 years down the road and the structure was sound) Modern way is strips of roofing membrane. Screws certainly is a major improvement over nails.

 

[dalola]

If you build close to the ground it is a good idea to cover the area with geotextile to prevent growth of grasses and weeds./QUOTE]

For sure, i will do this, even tho not much grows in my build spot due to tree canopy.

I read a thing yesterday about fastening the deck boards a unique way. Two screws at the end (pre-drilled), then one screw at every other side of the deck board on the remaining joists. Kind of like a "Z" pattern. Thoughts on that? Author claimed less splitting, less time & material, no issues with warping or loosening.

 

[bcp]

I read a thing yesterday about fastening the deck boards a unique way. Two screws at the end (pre-drilled), then one screw at every other side of the deck board on the remaining joists. Kind of like a "Z" pattern. Thoughts on that? Author claimed less splitting, less time & material, no issues with warping or loosening.

I tried that on my next to last major repair. For my wood and my weather, it made no difference. My problem is rot, not splits.

Bruce

 

[Guidshir]

Not to hijack but to add possibly useful info: how does one select and prepare the wood for a deck? As Eddie said a few posts ago you fasten the boards tightly together so that there is a gap when shrunk. I assume that's if using new boards that are straight from Lowes/HD/local lumber yard. What if the wood is set out to acclimate? I don't know who built my deck but it has almost less than 1/4" gaps which causes dog hair, dirt, tree spew and other things to clog is up which leads to standing water and rot.

How do we select boards for minimal warping, and is there any process that can ensure proper dry or wetness?

 

[dalola]

With pressure treated wood, not sure you have too many choices, other than picking & choosing the best boards, which is what I plan to do. Same with the deck boards, I'll sort & pick the straightest, least knotty. The drying process just takes time, which I'm happy to give.

 

[s219]

Not to hijack but to add possibly useful info: how does one select and prepare the wood for a deck? As Eddie said a few posts ago you fasten the boards tightly together so that there is a gap when shrunk. I assume that's if using new boards that are straight from Lowes/HD/local lumber yard. What if the wood is set out to acclimate? I don't know who built my deck but it has almost less than 1/4" gaps which causes dog hair, dirt, tree spew and other things to clog is up which leads to standing water and rot.

How do we select boards for minimal warping, and is there any process that can ensure proper dry or wetness?

So when I learned to build decks many years ago as a teen working in my dad's construction business, what we would do is periodically make pencil marks down the joists based on a multiple of the deck board width. That way you could nail down the boards and keep them lined up and parallel. If we wanted the boards to be tight we'd use a large screwdriver, pry bar, or any other "persuader" tool to finagle the boards into line to match the marks. If we wanted a gap we'd work the math so there was a gap and adjust the boards to those marks.

5/4" lumber is a lot more noodly and easy to adjust and steer. 2" lumber tends to be stiffer but is still adjustable with the right persuader tool.

Back then we tended to put the boards tight knowing there would be a gap when dry. Nowadays I have been purposely leaving gaps into decks to help the water drain and minimize rot. I just re-decked a trailer that had a lot of rot -- the deck boards were tight. When there was heavy rain, water would pool on that trailer and only drain off the front and back. When I re-decked it, I purposely left 1/2" gaps between all the wood. The outdoors deck I showed in pictures above also had 1/2" gaps since it gets puked on by leaves in the autumn and I wanted to promote drainage and airflow.

If you want very specific control over gaps on a deck, look for treated lumber that is kiln-dried after treatment (KDAT). KDAT lumber comes in a lot of sizes and is a joy to work with because it's dimensionally stable as soon as you buy it and it's also ready to stain right away. It costs a little bit more but I think the benefits justify that in certain situations. Also, if you're doing any finish carpentry with treated wood, KDAT is the only way to go.

If treated lumber is not KDAT, I prefer to buy it soaking wet (despite being heavy and hard to handle). Store it strapped together or nail it together right away. Once that stuff dries, if it's not nailed down or strapped down it will want to turn into a hockey stick. It sucks to work with but if you get it wet and keep it restrained, things work out a lot better.

 

[sld]

When I built my 20 X 24 deck 18 years ago I wrapped 3 sides of the sub structure (top and 2 sides of each board) in tar paper and stapled it before screwing on the decking. All the 2X8 and 2X10 structure is still in very good shape. I need to replace the deck boards at some point though.

I spent extra for wrought iron railing. I've only had to repaint it once in all this time.

 

[dalola]

Geographic location must have a lot to do with how long decks last, as far as wood rot. The deck on the back of my house was built with the house back in '91, and still solid. I've only replaced a couple 5/4 deck boards in that time. So, around here, it seems the extra material/expense/time to put extra protection on the framework may not be necessary.

Certainly for my camp deck project, I'll just go straight up wood, as it's likely a temporary (~10 yrs?) feature anyway.

 

[crazyal]

My woodshed is 8x12 and holds a lot more weight than your deck ever will (2 cords+ of dry wood). It's made PT 2x8s. I doubled them up on the 12' direction and used hangers for the 8' joists. I have only 4 legs (4x4 posts) about 6" in from each long end. I used rocks about 16" to 24" in diameter from my property for the base. Dug 4 holes and used the tractor to push them in. I made a simple square boxs out of OSB that fit pretty tightly to the rocks and then filled in around them. I did use a hammer drill to put some holes for rebar into the rocks). Frost is a real issue around here and after 14 years that shed hasn't moved one bit.

As for decking, if you can afford it I would use hardwood decking. My decks are made with Tigerwood. It'll turn gray but it'll last forever and it doesn't get hot like the plastic decking.

 

[crazyal]

Yes, and those are mainly an attempt to make a better "toenail" type attachment, with nails properly 90 degrees across the grain in two directions instead of one direction on a 45. I really hate a standard toenail with the nail shooting 45 through the joist. I'll do a standard toenail if it's the only solution, but it's really a weak way to use a fastener in wood.

I switched to using the galvanized hurricane straps.

 

[PILOON]

We always installed decking with a 1/4" gap and used screwdrivers as a gapping tool.
Also (mentioned earlier) cut strips of 3"wide roofing membrane to cover the joists so that water would be shed away from them.
Shucks I also used nail gun and 3" common nails, 2 per joist.
If the decking is curved (often is) the screwdriver made 4 a good persuader, bang it into the joist an lever the deck board over in place.
Be fussy if you must but in the overall picture nails are not all that ugly. Who really checks out that detail.
For sure nail the deck down carefully spacing the fasteners to form a nice pattern.

I must have built 40-50 decks and nobody ever complained about nails. More important is to stagger any butt joints as 2 or 3 adjacent is plumb ugly.
Cut a deck board short every now and then to stagger the butt joints,
Pay more attention to carefully spacing railings as that really catches the eye and remember 3 1/2 spacing is the norm. (I used a scrap 2 x 4 as my spacer jig)
I always liked to use a 2 x 6 as my top and then capped that with a 1 1/4 x 6 as a finishing.
Makes a nice topping to lean on and holds a cool beverage as well.
Another feature is that it keeps water away from the upright spindles.
Very important is to use suitable flashing if a deck is attached to the side of a house otherwise you risk causing rotting of the structural wall base
If U use joist hangers remember that all those nail holes are meant o be occupied if U wish to meet code.

 

[Diggin It]

I use screws because they're usually easier to remove if you need to replace a single board for some reason. I've had a few heads strip out though which meant reverting to the pry bar.

 

[EddieWalker]

Geographic location must have a lot to do with how long decks last, as far as wood rot. The deck on the back of my house was built with the house back in '91, and still solid..

The method to treat wood was changed, and the new method relies on using a massive amount of water that is forced into the wood. This makes it impossible to predict what the wood will do when it dries out. I've seen 12 foot long 2x6's shrink almost an inch in length a year later, with a quarter of an inch shrinkage being very common. It is impossible to cut a 45 into two boards and expect them to stay tight. I tell my clients what will happen, and then come back a year later to fill the gaps with bondo. There is no point in replacing the boards because they will just shrink again. 45's are the worse because the longer part is thinner, so it dries unevenly. Because 5/4 lumber is so much thinner to begin with, it changes more dramatically when it dries out. There is no way to know what it will look like in a year except that it will be a lot smaller then when it was installed. I also avoid 4x4's and 4x6's for posts because of how badly they twist when drying. 6x6's will twist to some degree, but it's minimal. Cedar is the only other option around her, but it's 4 times the money.

 

[dalola]

The method to treat wood was changed, and the new method relies on using a massive amount of water that is forced into the wood. This makes it impossible to predict what the wood will do when it dries out. I've seen 12 foot long 2x6's shrink almost an inch in length a year later, with a quarter of an inch shrinkage being very common. It is impossible to cut a 45 into two boards and expect them to stay tight. I tell my clients what will happen, and then come back a year later to fill the gaps with bondo. There is no point in replacing the boards because they will just shrink again. 45's are the worse because the longer part is thinner, so it dries unevenly. Because 5/4 lumber is so much thinner to begin with, it changes more dramatically when it dries out. There is no way to know what it will look like in a year except that it will be a lot smaller then when it was installed. I also avoid 4x4's and 4x6's for posts because of how badly they twist when drying. 6x6's will twist to some degree, but it's minimal. Cedar is the only other option around her, but it's 4 times the money.

This kind of stuff makes me glad I'm not a builder, must be so frustrating to watch a nice new structure "morph" over the course of a year.

A well built brand new wood deck is so pleasing to my eye, you just want them to stay perfect forever!

 

[ovrszd]

The method to treat wood was changed, and the new method relies on using a massive amount of water that is forced into the wood. This makes it impossible to predict what the wood will do when it dries out. I've seen 12 foot long 2x6's shrink almost an inch in length a year later, with a quarter of an inch shrinkage being very common. It is impossible to cut a 45 into two boards and expect them to stay tight. I tell my clients what will happen, and then come back a year later to fill the gaps with bondo. There is no point in replacing the boards because they will just shrink again. 45's are the worse because the longer part is thinner, so it dries unevenly. Because 5/4 lumber is so much thinner to begin with, it changes more dramatically when it dries out. There is no way to know what it will look like in a year except that it will be a lot smaller then when it was installed. I also avoid 4x4's and 4x6's for posts because of how badly they twist when drying. 6x6's will twist to some degree, but it's minimal. Cedar is the only other option around her, but it's 4 times the money.

Good stuff Eddie. Have experienced all of it..... I built two wooden decks at my current house. Understand the necessity. Am totally over them.

 

[ArlyA]

Hummmm wood does not shrink much length wise.. Its mostly in the grains (wood width) that looses thickness as it dries.

which way does wood shrink - Google Search

The method to treat wood was changed, and the new method relies on using a massive amount of water that is forced into the wood. This makes it impossible to predict what the wood will do when it dries out. I've seen 12 foot long 2x6's shrink almost an inch in length a year later, with a quarter of an inch shrinkage being very common. It is impossible to cut a 45 into two boards and expect them to stay tight. I tell my clients what will happen, and then come back a year later to fill the gaps with bondo. There is no point in replacing the boards because they will just shrink again. 45's are the worse because the longer part is thinner, so it dries unevenly. Because 5/4 lumber is so much thinner to begin with, it changes more dramatically when it dries out. There is no way to know what it will look like in a year except that it will be a lot smaller then when it was installed. I also avoid 4x4's and 4x6's for posts because of how badly they twist when drying. 6x6's will twist to some degree, but it's minimal. Cedar is the only other option around her, but it's 4 times the money.