FEL pistons housing hits FEL arm(s)

[Coyote machine]

Hi Tom,

I'm a little confused as to what you mean by,... 'after rolling the bucket back and seeing if the clearance at the cylinder is ok'
what determines if it is ok or not; just enough clearance to not hit the fel when at full dump position? or some other criteria?
When you say, 'repair this' are you referring to straightening out the black Q A plate that normally hits the fel arm stop?
I'm not a welder, so I ask if you are suggesting adding the 1/2" key stock to the fel stop ( orange plate with rust damage/indentation) or are you saying to add it to the Q A stop at the bent edge or across it as would be the case if it went between your two blue lines on the marked up pic?

Thanks for the markup, suggestions and answer to my questions above, ( in advance)

 

[spruce Deere]

At long last here are the pics and an explanation of what they are about:
First pic is the left fel arm in the raised and curled position, viewed from in front of the tractor.
Second pic is the other side, same position and view.
Note in both pics the black item/plate is the QA plate pushed in on both pics at the bottom of the plate, and the end of the fel arm (orange rectangular tubing) just below it; with the end of the fel tubing all mangled up on both sides.
Third pic is with the bucket overhead shooting the 1/2moon brackets from underneath, against the sky as background. This shows the twisting of the 1/2 moon plates on the left side of the fel arm.

Last pics is under right side fel arm in the full 'dump' position. This shows how the Q A plate is bent, and where it hits on the stop that is supposed to stop and damage like this from occurring.

I've got many more pics, but I think this represents what is going on, and the damage done.

Comments, ideas, suggestions.....

After seeing the pictures seems simple, the bucket cylinders are to long or the "1/2 moon" plates as you call them are wrong. You could weld, straighten, add metal, gusset all you want, It will still try to self destruct. To much length some were..... Dealer, warranty. If they try to kiss you off and cry operator error, ask them why the bucket cylinders are still in one piece with that kind of damage then.

 

[tommu56]

Coyote machine


you will have to pull these off to get them back in shape so you can take them to a welder to so it.

spruce Deere

As to cylinder length some times they are made long to keep some strength.
The more they over lap the less likely they will banana if the cylinder is in compression and over loaded like back dragging with the bucket rolled all the way dumped.


Take a side picture of the side of the linkages and end of cylinder and I might be able to explain it better.
tom

 

[gpflepsen]

After seeing the pictures seems simple, the bucket cylinders are to long or the "1/2 moon" plates as you call them are wrong. You could weld, straighten, add metal, gusset all you want, It will still try to self destruct. To much length some were..... Dealer, warranty. If they try to kiss you off and cry operator error, ask them why the bucket cylinders are still in one piece with that kind of damage then.

It seems to me the geometry is just wrong, maybe the wrong SS plate is in use. The buckling curved links, are they the link that connects the cylinder rod to the SS attachment plate? If so, these buckling would decrease the severity of the problem, not cause it. I'd like to see some shots from the side of the linkage in full dump, full curl and intermediate. Something doesn't seem right with the components.

 

[Coyote machine]

First, thanks to all who are following this thread and posting replies. I really appreciate your time and your opinions and your willingness to share your knowledge.
Now, I'm not sure I understand completely what spruce Deere is saying when you state:

...ask them why the bucket cylinders are still in one piece with that kind of damage then.

What do you see as the significant piece about the cylinders not having self destructed?
Tom, and gpflepsen I will post some more pics to try to help clarify what is happening.
I will say having looked at how a KL-451 is setup, it is similar but clearly has improvements that render the kind of damage seen on my fel near impossible to occur.

See new pics below:

 

[Coyote machine]

Here are some further pics- I seem to be getting the hang of getting them into the post
1st shows fel damage to end of fel tubing closest to bucket end of fel.

2nd shows unmistakable piston contact with fel arm's top surface, which damages both piston housing as seen from underside of piston in last pic of this group.

3rd shows damage to the curved metal 1/2 moon 'bars' on either side of each piston. Misalignment allows the bars to get scraped, as can be see if viewed closely.
Last pic is damage to piston housing, (on the underside) when it hits the fel arm below the normal range of the piston housing's travel.

 

[tommu56]

Coyote machine
take a whole side picture of loader bucket and arms and post it now that you have the hang of it.


tom

 

[gpflepsen]

First, thanks to all who are following this thread and posting replies. I really appreciate your time and your opinions and your willingness to share your knowledge.
Now, I'm not sure I understand completely what spruce Deere is saying when you state: What do you see as the significant piece about the cylinders not having self destructed?
Tom, and gpflepsen I will post some more pics to try to help clarify what is happening.
I will say having looked at how a KL-451 is setup, it is similar but clearly has improvements that render the kind of damage seen on my fel near impossible to occur.

See new pics below:

I see from the second pic, your arm-to-rod curved link is buckling from compressive forces, which will not happen when back-dragging. From the geometry, it looks like you have to be putting forces on the bucket to place the cylinder in tension to cause this. Excessive breakout forces, dozing forward with the cutting edge vertical and this kind of activity seems to put the loads into this configuration. Are you lifting too much with the forks ends? If not, this is just a plain out and out design deficiency, IMHO. The effective length of the link is shorter putting the cylinder closer to the loader arm. The shorter length is also giving more rotation in the full dump position allowing the mount plate to strike the arm.

If the dealer refuses to warranty the links, replace them or repair them. I'd add some flange material to the inner and outer edge to strengthen them against future buckling. Think making an I-beam cross section out of them, taking care to not cause interference with anything.

I think this is your setup in the first pic,


Which would put the linkage in this (second pic) position at dump. It's a different loader, but the links would work similarly.

 

[spruce Deere]

What I meant was the way everything is, that makes the CYLINDERS the stops. The constant hammering from the wrong geometry would bent the links and fowl up your QA plate. It is clearly a design flaw or assembled with wrong parts. But combined with pushing with the bucket vertical 'not good' is force that would do that kind of damage, or gut the bucket cylinders being they are acting as the stops with that much wear from the real stops. Have you talked to the dealer yet? If he cannot see this is a design flaw, wrong link arms....WOW.

 

[TBDonnelly]

I see from the second pic, your arm-to-rod curved link is buckling from compressive forces, which will not happen when back-dragging. From the geometry, it looks like you have to be putting forces on the bucket to place the cylinder in tension to cause this. Excessive breakout forces, dozing forward with the cutting edge vertical and this kind of activity seems to put the loads into this configuration.

I'm not understanding your train of thought. Backdragging in full dump position (the most vulnerable position for damage) is putting compressive forces on the curved linkage plates and the fully extended curl cylinders. When backdragging (tractor in reverse) the bucket wants to curl back to the neutral position (the curl cylinder rods withdrawn in the cylinders). I can see where this could create excessive compressive forces causing the curved linkage plates to wrinkle thus causing the secondary alignment issues.

Front dragging would be pulling on the curved linkages and wrinkling of the metal would be less likely but not out of the realm of possibility(IMO).

Either way, to my knowledge, front dragging or back dragging with the curl cylinders fully extended (with the bucket in full dump position) is not a recommended procedure.

I would be curious to see if changing out the wrinkled curved linkage plates line things back up. Has it been established that the curl cylinder rods are not bowed?

There is a duplicate post on this issue posted in the Kioti forum.
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/.../161951-front-end-loader-pistons-housing.html

Don