Ballast FEL use with no ballast

Gary_in_Indiana · Oct 8, 2004

As some of you may have read in the JD Owning/Operating Forum, I have to do some repairs before I can use my 3PH. As a result, I even took off the arms themselves. The only other times I've done that have been to put on my backhoe.

Nonetheless I decided to use my tractor today to move my 26' steel trailer to get it out of the way so I can used the dozer tomorrow. Because I'm basically lazy and was in a hurry, I just hooked my safety chains together and tossed them over a bucket toothbar tooth and started backing away.

At the first turn I had quite a shock! One rear wheel came completely airborne. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif I simply didn't have enough weight back there. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Laziness won out still, though. Instead of turning around and pulling the thing as I should have I just pushed it out in the front yard to get it out of the way and left it there. Sometimes it's good to be single. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

RonR · Oct 8, 2004

Hi Gary,

I did that pulling a sailboat (total weight of boat and trailer < 1500#).

What I didn't see was I had the tongue up in the air high enough, the rear roller bolts were plowing into the hard ground. I also was backing and turning.

Fortunately, I was in 2WD and my momentum stopped when the rear wheel went off the ground. Sure woke me up about how easy that thing is to stall or tip.............

I've learned my lesson--I always have something heavy on the rear when using FEL to move something.

Ron

adegiulio · Oct 8, 2004

Its funny you mention this because I was doing some loader work this weekend without ballast and had similar problems. I was skidding some pretty large logs from one side of the property to the other. I hook the chain to the I-Match and attach the logging tongs to the chain. After skidding a bunch of them I decided to start stacking them. The 4in1 is great for this by the way. Anyway, I start lifting the logs and sure enough one tire keeps lifting up a little. I manage to get some of the logs stacked and then go back to move the rest. After they were all moved I got back to trying to stack them. After nearly killing myself I decided it would be worth the 5 minutes of work to take off the 3ph and put on my backhoe. Problem solved!! And I got the stacking done a lot quicker because I didn't have to move so slowly to prevent DEATH.. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

PineRidge · Oct 8, 2004

Gary unfortunately I think a lot of us have learned the hard way. When I first got my TC-40D it came with wheel weights and a rear 3 point weight bar for counterbalance when using the loader. I had removed the loader and all the extra cast iron weight early in the spring cause I had some mowing to do and I wanted to make the tractor as light as I could when pulling the RFM so as not to rut the lot.

Once I finished I pulled the RFM off and parked the tractor for the night. The next day out I needed the loader and once I reattached it to the tractor I didn't even give the rear weight a second thought, that was at least until I had a bucket full of wet dirt and was moving fairly well. The rear wheels started to come up before I knew what happened and it was just the fact that the FEL was pretty low that saved me from doing any damage other than hurting my pride.

I learned real fast to double check the rig before putting it to work on that day. Pucker factor ain't no fun when it's happening to you my friend.

Freds · Oct 9, 2004

Hey guys,
Is this happening without loaded tires or do you consider loaded tires to be ballast?
I've had some pretty full loads in my bucket with nothing but loaded tires without a problem... so far. I'm even thinking of getting rid of my homemade counterweight because of this. I just don't use it anymore.

JDFANATIC · Oct 9, 2004

I just had the tires loaded on my 2210 (delv'd last night), and though I wasn't able to give it a good work-out, it felt a lot more balanced. It will be interesting to see how it feels with some light loads in the FEL.

Varmintmist · Oct 9, 2004

I just loaded the tires on my 3510, Pics and explanation in the Mahindra forum.

I ran mine the day after I got it to move some 2B modified and MOST of the time with a full bucket it wasnt a problem. I got cocked on a grade while getting a load and the back went up. That in itself isnt a real problem because I was pretty much ready for it to happen. I already had the stuff to load the tires (mostly) but I really wanted that triaxel load out of my way.

I loaded them that night. Just put in a hour this morning and with approx 700LB in the tires I did manage to lift the rear digging a stump. But it sure didnt come up like it did without the weight in.

adegiulio · Oct 9, 2004

My tires are loaded and I still had problems. A bucket full of soil is one thing, a big tree trunk is another. Even after the backhoe was put on I was still having a little trouble with one of the tires lifting a little when I tried lifting a tree trunk that wasnt perfectly centered

Jim_Fisher · Oct 9, 2004

Freds,

( I've had some pretty full loads in my bucket with nothing but loaded tires without a problem... so far. I'm even thinking of getting rid of my homemade counterweight because of this. I just don't use it anymore. )

Placing ballast behind the rear wheels will shift some of the load from the steering axle to the rear axle. Loading the rear tires helps to keep them on the ground but doesn't take any weight off of the steering axle.

I would expect less weight on a steering axle to equate to longer seal and bearing life and less stress/wear on the steering mechanism.

Your operator's manual may be able to help you determine the proper placement and amount of weight.

Freds · Oct 9, 2004

Hmmm, maybe I'll hang onto that counterweight just in case then. I never really thought about the FEL picking up something that was over its capacity and needing the extra ballast. I just figured a hose would pop if I had too much in it (which I've had happen when using it to grade).

To20Chris · Oct 9, 2004

Loaded tired are a real help, but you need to be careful anyway. My tires are loaded, my tractor is heavy, I keep a small BB on the back, and I've still had trouble. More than once this summer while moving topsoil I've had the thing start to lift on me. There was not enough room between the pile in front of me and where I was moving it to behind me. When I would back up, sometimes a rear wheel would start to run up on the dirt behind me. Combined with soft soil under the front wheels and a loaded 60" bucket, that was enough to unbalance it. Personnaly, I would not consider using it without anything on the 3ph.

By the way, I've often wondered what the best strategy would be if I felt it going over - I could drop the bucket to try to prevent it, or I could leave it up to try to give it something to fall over on, figuring that between the ROPS and raised bucket it might not do too much damage!?

Varmintmist · Oct 11, 2004

Drop the bucket, hard and fast. You have to get your center of gravity lower.

Ballast boxes and the like are great, IF the only implement you are using at the time is the loader. I normally have a BB, or a carryall on the back. Currently there is a 3pt single bottom plow on it. I am taking out a log driveway near the old landing area and moving it near the road filling in a bank to make it mowable. The plow rips up the very compacted bank run gravel and the loader is moving it. I need both on at one time. The plow probably doesnt weigh more than 125 lb. The tries have approx 720lb in them. Can I lift the back? Yep, thats a lot of loader out there. If I but a ballast box on the back will I be able to lift the back, yep. No doubt in my mind. I had to use the solution that makes the machine the most usable. I loaded the tires.

Ledgemere Farm · Oct 11, 2004

Using a front loader w/o weight on the back will ruin the gears in your front end. It's also really hard on the spindles and the axle itself. Your best bet is to use either wheel weights or loaded tires AND a counter weight. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

ByronBob · Oct 11, 2004

Drop the load..........

Gary_in_Indiana · Oct 11, 2004

Like most people, I normally have something on the 3PH to act as ballast but, as some of you probably know, my 3PH is out of service right now so my only option would have been to attach my backhoe just to move my trailer then take it back off when I was done so the other repair could be done.

Honestly, I never even THOUGHT ABOUT ballast one way or the other until I started to turn. It had lifted and pulled straight just fine. As soon as I realized what the problem was I decided to just push it straight out into the pasture to get it out of the way. Maybe not the best way to have handled it but it worked and I sincerely doubt any major damage was done. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Varmintmist · Oct 12, 2004

OR, blow 7-8 bucks on another ball and mount it to the drawbar /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Gary_in_Indiana · Oct 12, 2004

Nice thought but my drawbar is WAY too low. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Varmintmist · Oct 13, 2004

OK, next cheap option, 3pt drawbar. I think they are around 25-30 bucks, goes between the lower arms of the 3 pt. Mount a ball on it and put the height where you want it.

Bob_Skurka · Oct 13, 2004

Hmmm, maybe I'll hang onto that counterweight just in case then. I never really thought about the FEL picking up something that was over its capacity and needing the extra ballast. I just figured a hose would pop if I had too much in it (which I've had happen when using it to grade).

Fred, I've gotten into some heated debates with some of the Kioti guys about heavy tractors and light tractors and loader work. Some people mistakenly believe that a heavy tractor is much better for loader work. And while a heavy machine is better for digging into a pile, loader work often involves much more than digging. The true answer comes in the form of ballast and ballast is easily defined as WEIGHT IN THE PROPER PLACE. The best ballast is far back and low on the tractor. As one of the previous posters mentioned, loaded rears work in many cases but they do have some drawbacks. Some tractor manufacturers recommend wheel weights OR loaded tires AND a ballast box, because loaded tires alone, or a ballast box alone, is not enough.

You pose the issue above of lifting more than the FEL is capable of, but the reality is that many FELs are capable of lifting much more than the tractor is capable of safely moving if only the rear tires are loaded. Perhaps for moving a bucket load of dirt you have enough ballast, but what will happen if you move something heavier?

I have a ballast box and will tell you I use it SOMETIMES. If I am moving branches to the burn pile then the loads are very light and no ballast is needed. But if I am moving granite cobblestones or clay then I need to attach the ballast box to be safe. If I was you, I would hang on to the ballast box and use it when you need it, even if it is only the occasional use.

Gary_in_Indiana · Oct 13, 2004

"3pt drawbar. I think they are around 25-30 bucks, goes between the lower arms of the 3 pt." 

Again, a good idea BUT... The reason I had nothing on the back for ballast was that I couldn't use my 3PH because I'd broken one lobe to which one lower arm attaches off the rear axle housing on my tractor.