Fence Posts, upside down or not?

[WAB85]

I use poles from our local utility company for fence building. I cut them to 8 foot lengths and put the largest end down. I have a Land-Pride PHD on a Kubota L3830 (12" auger). For years I have tamped the dirt around the post with a "stick" but it's hard to compact that way. I am in NE Indiana and our soil has a lot of clay. The last two years I have used sand to back fill. NO tamping required. Just put a level on the post, start adding sand and jiggling the post. You cannot believe had solid those post get. It is much better and faster than trying to tamp the dirt back in around the post.

 

[buckeyefarmer]

Around here they get planted big end down, but driven smaller end down. I doubt it makes much difference.

 

[LBrown59]

Seems that if the wider end is in the ground, the extra canter may help keep the post from "heaving" up later.

I've never seen a power pole put in any other way.
They must know something and they have alot on the "line".

Like hundreds or thousands of volts.

 

[sixdogs]

When we lived in northern New England it was tradition to put the pointed end in first so you could pound them in.
Also, come sping you walk around with a large mallet-looking sledge and drive it back--- the top big end--- back to where it ought to be before the frost heave.
Apparenty that tradition spread to the rest of the country where it shouldn't matter.
It would work better the small end up but then it would be harder to pound back in.

Regarding rotting posts.
As noted, they rot at the ground level and not so much above or below grade.
In the old days in Maine, guys would wrap the ground contact area of telephone poles with tar paper and it worked.
We did it with our fence posts and it worked great. I also put the posts in garbage bags first and that also worked.
Anythng to keep the water/air contact away from the post at ground level.

 

[showcattle]

I've always buried the larger end when setting posts in a hole. If I'm using a post driver, narrow end goes in the ground. If you "drive" the large end in, it makes for a loose post.

 

[h2opdler]

I'm putting in round treated fence posts. Should I put them in upside down or right-side up? The posts are narrower on the top and wider on the bottom.

The way that I put fence posts in is that I use my tractor post hole digger to dig a hole about an inch or two smaller than the diameter of the post and then I make the hole about 30 inches deep if I want to bury the post 36 inches.

Then I set the post by the hole and push it in with my front end loader. This makes the post very tight and I do not have any hole to backfill.

This method works perfect if I put the poles in upside down but some have told me it is best to put the posts in right side up with the wide end to the bottom. If I do that then it makes the hole wider than the post and I have to backfill it and it never seems as tight.

Your opinion?

I just finished talking with a Amish guy that said he was told that "upside down is the right side up" Theory being that the cells of the wood wick up moisture and nutrients from the bottom up so in order to keep them from continuing absorbing water from the ground, put them in upside down.
That being said, I never heard that before so I'm still on the fence about which ways is correct, I have put them in both ways and never noticed a difference.

 

[buckeyefarmer]

They pound them big side up here. I figured because that end would take a beating better.

 

[stuckmotor]

I read an article first published around a hundred years ago where someone claimed to have built a fence placing half of the posts right side up and the other half upside down. He said the upside down ones lasted longer. I don't remember whether he
mentioned the species of wood or whether the posts were squared or round as they grew.

I've thought about putting in cedar posts upside down just as you described but, couldn't make myself do it. For one thing, the thicker end just sees like it would last longer and there's that I didn't want to explain to neighbors why the posts were upside down.

 

[stuckmotor]

I just finished talking with a Amish guy that said he was told that "upside down is the right side up" Theory being that the cells of the wood wick up moisture and nutrients from the bottom up so in order to keep them from continuing absorbing water from the ground, put them in upside down.
That being said, I never heard that before so I'm still on the fence about which ways is correct, I have put them in both ways and never noticed a difference.

As I remember the cells wicking up moisture was the theory given for upside down posts I mentioned in my previous comment.

 

[oosik]

Man - I'm glad all the posts around my 80 are T-133 steel. Except the ones going thru the moat area - they last forever.

 

[tallyho8]

It's been over 8 years since I started this thread and we have reached no consensus yet. The poles I have driven in upside down 8 years ago are still holding strong even in the swampier areas where I have put them. My neighbor put a fence down last year using 4x4 treated posts. He dug a large hole, placed the pole then poured a bag of concrete mix in each hole leaving the concrete to set with the natural moisture in the ground. All of his posts are already loose and leaning.

 

[oosik]

FWIW - the standard sizes of T-posts are - 101, 125 & 133. They use to make 145 also. I can't find 145's - guess there is no market for these bigger posts. The number designates the weight of steel per lineal foot of post.

 

[QRTRHRS]

It's been over 8 years since I started this thread and we have reached no consensus yet. The poles I have driven in upside down 8 years ago are still holding strong even in the swampier areas where I have put them. My neighbor put a fence down last year using 4x4 treated posts. He dug a large hole, placed the pole then poured a bag of concrete mix in each hole leaving the concrete to set with the natural moisture in the ground. All of his posts are already loose and leaning.

I have dry bagged a good number of posts. I always "poke" the dry mix with a piece of 1/4" rebar to get the air out as good as I can then have at it with about a one inch pry bar and finally take my bar with about a two inch diameter knob on one end. I then backfill the soil a shovel full or two at a time tamping with the two bars. It may take some time but my posts stay in pretty well.

This past summer, I pulled some 4x4 posts that I had used for a fenced in yard for our dogs that needed some changes. I had set them the same way. I pulled them or at least tried to with one of those lever style pullers that works with a t-post or a wood post with a chain. This was before it got so dry around my neck of the woods and those posts would not budge. That's even with hanging my post pounder on the lever for extra "leverage". I ended up digging up a bit of dirt to make a little pond area and filling it with water several times. Finally I was able to slip the posts out leaving the concrete behind.

Anyway, the upside down theory sounds plausable. I never noticed premature rotting and I like to put the larger end in first thinking the taper helps to hold the post better?

 

[Gary Fowler]

I have always seen post put in large end down when putting them in a hole, small end down if driving them. I have no idea how longevity is affected by either method.
Telephone / utility poles are always installed large end down. I would think that as many as they install, they would know the best way. They would sure look strange if installed upside down.

 

[MNBobcat]

There is a correct answer. If using a hydraulic post pounder and pounding them in, install them with the narrow end in the ground. The reason is, it is like putting a cork in a bottle. They get tighter as you drive them in.

If augering or digging a hole, they go in fat side down.

 

[oosik]

It just hit me. I've seen many, many semi loads of those green, turned fence posts. There is a pointed end and a squared off end, but both ends are the same diameter. I've always thought you put the pointed end down. Whether driven or put in an augured hole.

 

[buckeyefarmer]

Never seen posts pre sharpened

 

[oosik]

Now - that's just darn strange, buckeye farmer. I've never seen anything BUT the "green" pre-sharpened ones. They are loaded up into bundles of, probably, thirty or so and then these bundles are stacked up on a semi-truck. The semi - loads are always going west. Over to the "wet" side of the state. Lots & lots of semi loads - going west in the spring and again in the fall. Softer ground - easier pounding, I would guess.

NO - on second thought - I've seen posts that weren't green nor pre-sharpened. A guy up north - around Colville - was cutting and setting posts. They were small Tamarack trees from right off his property. And when I ran the T-posts & barbed wire here on my property - there were three posts. Looked like Locust. Still standing on my property line.

So when I fenced my 80 acres in 1982. 650 - T-133 steel posts and three wood posts. The three wood posts are all that was remaining from what the original homesteader installed in 1892. These three posts are still on the fence line - strong as ever.

 

[Jstpssng]

I have always seen post put in large end down when putting them in a hole, small end down if driving them. I have no idea how longevity is affected by either method.
Telephone / utility poles are always installed large end down. I would think that as many as they install, they would know the best way. They would sure look strange if installed upside down.

Utility poles are pressure treated, with the treatment refreshed occasionally. They also are taller than the average fence post, and carry a lot more top weight.
Having said that I was told by a landscaping instructor in my past life to put the top up and the bottom down, so that precipitation would run off rather than down into the poles. That's also why we cut post tops at a slant.
Decades ago my father built a 20x93 foot wooden greenhouse using 4x4 posts every 4 feet set into the ground, and pouring concrete into the holes. The following spring he dug all of those posts back up and removed the concrete with a sledgehammer, as the frost had caught on the concrete and lifted them out of the ground.

 

[oosik]

We lived in Glennallen, AK for a year. It's between Anchorage & Fairbanks. The utility companies would put a multi-layer sleeve on their poles when they set them. Several layers of some type of plastic sheeting. The idea - the frost would attach to the outer most layer and just slide it up/down on the inner layers - with the seasons.

Must have been of some benefit - it was used on all their poles.