Fire Protection

[RonL]

I'm going to put in a perimeter drain on the upper side of my property. There is a culvert that dumps onto my property where I am going to put the collector. The culvert feeds from a 200 yard long roadside drainage ditch. There is much water when it rains. The collector will feed into a 5 to 10 thousand gallon cistern. I intend to put a standpipe connection on the cistern for Fire Department connection. I would like to also connect a pump to the cistern for fire protection. I'm thinking of an electric pump that would be instantly available in an emergency. PSNH tells me that the maximum HP that can be connected to their single phase service is 5HP. Is 5HP electric sufficient to run a fire protection pump? As I understand it a one and a half inch hose is considered minimum for attacking a fire. One site I looked at was selling a 6.5 HP gas driven pump that put out 360 GPM at 68 PSI. Another site recommended 125 PSI minimum for feeding a fire protection system. If 5HP electric is insufficient can two 5 HP electric pumps be used in tandem? Or maybe a 7.5 HP electric as it would be used only in emergencies? Anyone with experience?

RonL

 

[lamarbur]

are you trying to "charge" a home sprinkler system or just have instant draft available?

 

[slowzuki]

Sounds like a hand hose line. 1.5 inch is typical. Most nozzles require 65 psi to do their job of creating different spray patterns. This usually means about 60 usgpm or so out the nozzle if I recall correctly.

60 usgpm = about 8 ft3/min = 0.13333333 ft3/s of h2o

0.13333333 = 8.32 lb /s

65 psi = ~150 ft of h2o

8.32 * 150 = 1248 ft*lb/s = 2.26 hp

The power delivered to the water at the nozzle needs to be at least 2.25 hp, so with friction losses in the hose and the head from lifting from the cistern, I'd bet 5hp is just barely enough.

I'm guessing your power company would frown on 2 x 5 hp pumps. It would ease the start up draw though. We can run up 10 hp single phase here before they start hunting you down!

 

[SPIKER]

for the output you are looking at I would say that the 5HP would not do the trick BUT some water is better than NO water when a fire is going on.

One thing you didn't mention is how far you are going to pump the water? do you intend to have underground piping feeding the pump which is close to or inside the house/garage? (SUCTION LINE) and then a master connection for PRESSSURE out of the pump right near the pump discharge?

reason I'm asking is that you can run a 3" suction line right up to the pump inlet which will help reduce the friction losses.

also when wiring the pump you can wire dirrectly into the lines under the meter base that feeds the house. it will require it's own motor starter but is one of the FEW items that is alowed to be powered dirrectly from the incomming power line and not have to go through the house panel. this is incase there is a fire and the house power is lost or cut by the fire dept. the pump will still run.

the 2nd thing is the FD can tie dirrectly into the suction line and use their pumper truck to suck water dirrectly form the line, and treat it like a rural dry hydrant. even if there is water only inches below...

anyhow if it is close to the road then I assume that you were going to install the dry hydrant so the FD can get water there even if the neibors need it right>? You might give a call to the local FD to get their oppinions and maybe they could give best dirrections for setting up the hydrants and maybe even a list of materials or better yet the actuall materials? they may be able to get donations or materials donated for the project.!>???

anyhow our local fire dept was pretty nice bunch of guys. DON'T ask how I know!!! /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Mark m

 

[Lazy]

Hi
why is there a limit of 10 horse power? Are they concered with power factor? and what do they do after they find you?

Charlie

 

[tc35dforme]

My question Ron...are you planning on attacking a potential structure fire ??? I don't want to insult, but making a solo attack on a structure is scary....and in my opinion.....crazy. Do you have full turnout gear, SCBA, training, tools, etc ???

I'd be more inclined to look into an piped fire sprinkler system. Upfront cost may be higher, but its a lot better to take refuge and let the system do its best at controlling the fire.

Now if its for brush fires, then maybe you've got something.

Make sure you talk to the local FD if you will have a good water source. They will appreciate the heads-up and will most likely help you with the details of the set-up. You want to use fittings they can connect to !!

As for the pump, firefighting attack lines can flow in the area of 150 GPM and run a nozzle pressure of up to 100 PSI. That's a lot of horsepower. If you get too low on GPM you limit the ability to contain and cool the fire area quickly enough to be effective. Without the pressure, you don't get the nozzle performance or spray pattern you need for safe operation. The length of hose lay is also a factor in the equation.

A residential fire sprinler system ( NFPA13R ) can be installed with plastic pipie ( 1" ) and requires a very low pressure and flow. The goal is to stop the fire before it gets too big. Insurance companies are starting to offer pretty good discounts for residences with these systems.

Good Luck

 

[chucko]

Not sure what kind of fire your fighting. I would use a diesel pump (maybe even a PTO pump off my Kubota) mainly because.
Fire (forest or otherwise) could take out your electricity
Gas will explode easier than diesel IMO

 

[slowzuki]

An untrained person can't handle a 2.5" handline that the FD would use.

I too would recommend a residential sprinkler system for indoor protection.
Ken

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( As for the pump, firefighting attack lines can flow in the area of 150 GPM and run a nozzle pressure of up to 100 PSI. )</font>

 

[RonL]

PSNH tells me that the single largest Motor that they like to see on a service is 5HP. No particular limit was set on the number. Probably has to do with the starting draw. I'm wondering if running two motors with pumps in series is feasible. Or,as I said, running a 7.5 HP pump in an emergency. What I'm looking for is something that is immediately available in case of an emergency. Where I'm building is a considerable distance up a town maintained gravel road. The Town does not have a fire department but relies on a neighboring towns FD. I don't know what the response time would be to my property but I would hate to be standing around while a minor fire turns into a major conflagration. I have no intention of charging into a fully involved building but would consider attacking a small fire before it got out of hand. I have pulled people out of burning buildings when I was the first unit on the scene. I'm aware of the dangers.
I am also considering a sprinkler system that would be powered by the same pump with a diverter valve.
I have a 200 amp service on the property that runs from a 200 amp breaker to a temporary service distribution board. This spring I will be setting up a small building that will be a distribution point for sub panels in my workshop and garage. This will also be the source of power for the pump. A second 200 amp sevice will feed the house. Thus, I will be able to shut power to the house and still have power to the pump.
Right now I have a fire pit near where I intend to put in the cistern. Having water available will be an asset. The house will be down slope from the cistern.

RonL

 

[tc35dforme]

Hey Ron,

Now things make a bit more sense....If your only talking initial containment and minor exposure, you could probably consider a much smaller attack line and limit flows. Standard attack lines are 1 1/2" or 1 3/4" and are flowing up to 150 GPM. You may want to consider going to a 1" line ( commonly called ' forestry' around here ). This will flow about 50 GPM, but is much easier to handle by an individual. Pulling 200' of 1 1/2" full of water by yourself is a chore, donking the 1" is a solo job.

Honda makes a pump that many local Fire Departments use on their brush trucks. Its a WH15 and puts out 50 GPM at 50 PSI. If you can locate the pump in a spot below the cistern, priming isn't a problem. The pump sits full of anti-freeze, you open the inlet valve ( cistern to pump ) and start that reliable honda engine.

An electric pump with similar capacity will be about 3 HP. The problem is that the electric will end up costing more with pump cost, wiring, etc. I'd guess the Honda would run about $ 600, add $ 1 / ft for hose and a few bucks for fittings and nozzle and away you go.

Good luck....

Are you north of Berlin ????

 

[RonL]

Id rather an electric motor. Instantly available and no need to do periodic maintenance. I'm NorthWest of Littleton.

RonL

 

[RobertN]

I'd drop by the local FD and chat with them before putting anything in. They can give you more options on pumps, and specifically tell you what they need for a FDC.

You might look at a gas pump. It will work without power. Also, most times it is best to cut power to where you are fighting fire, lest you risk getting shocked.

Wildland flow is in the rnage og 35-60gpm, depending on the nozzle setting. Use only the water you need, but use enough to put the fire out; you don't want it to flare behind you. Most Engines only have 500-750 gallon tnaks, so water conservation is an issue. A wildland nozzle still likes to have 100psi, even at lower flows. Since it is a spray nozzle, it needs to work around 100psi or else it will not form a stream properly. Remember too, friction loss. A few lengths of single jacket wildland hose will drop pressure quickly.

Friction loss is FL=CQ2L
C for 1-1/2" hose is 24
Q=gpm/100
L=hose length/100

200' of 1-1/2" hose running a max of 60gpm for a wildland nozzle would be
FL=(24)(60/100)2(200/100)
FL=(24)(0.6)2(2)
FL=17.28

So, you need 117psi at the pump to properly flow 60gpm at 100psi to a wildland nozzle with 200' of 1-1/2" hose. For 400' of hose, bump it up to 134psi.

A structure attack flows more water, 100-150gpm. 1-3/4 and 2.5" lines/nozzles can flow a LOT of water. I would guess that you would not use more than a wildland attack setup, as the nozzles and hose are EXPENSIVE.

If you want to figure it out though, here's the values:
C=15.5 for 1-3/4" line
C=2 for 2.5" line

You need to find out what equipment you will want for your hoselay, so you know the PSI and gpm requirements. That will give you a better idea of the pumping capability you will need.

The station I used to work at used gas powered pumps, and just moved from floating pumps for use in lakes, streams ect, to a gas pump with a short suction line.

 

[hosejockey2002]

<font color="blue">Friction loss is FL=CQ2L
C for 1-1/2" hose is 24
Q=gpm/100
L=hose length/100

200' of 1-1/2" hose running a max of 60gpm for a wildland nozzle would be
FL=(24)(60/100)2(200/100)
FL=(24)(0.6)2(2)
FL=17.28 </font>


Flashback!! This sounds like the fire academy all over again! /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

 

[RobertN]

Oh ya! I was 99% of having my full license and operator status when I had to leave our local Volunteer corps for personal reasons. I was on license permit, with Ca operator 1A and 1B behind me.

Hydraulics were fun. Especially when you figure at 80psi, at 2" smooth bore tip on a deck gun will crank 1400+gpm! The OES engine and the old 2nd out engine from St-28, Shingle Springs, had deck guns. That 2" smooth bore tip was really impressive when compared to a fog nozzle.

I miss it /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif But, I still have good friends there, and get to hang out still. In fact, I arranged to have our Cub Scout pinewood derby at a local fire station. Four local fire stations in our district were invited last year, and again this coming month, to participate in a friendly race. check out:
home.pacbell.net/olsonpk/pack117/gallery/030315PineWoodDerby/dscn2940.htm

 

[NY_Yankees_Fan]

Ron,

Spend the money and install an automatic fire sprinkler system with a 250 gallon pressure tank in your basement. Then you do not have to worry about power requirements. Automatic fire sprinklers will give you the BEST possible protection for your family and home. The sprinklers activate so fast that even if you are sleeping in the room that is on fire you will live!, a fire hose will never do that for you. The advantage of the sprinkler over the hose line is so much greater. Sprinklers are always ready to work, even when you are sleeping, on vacation, at the store buying a gallon of milk, at work, etc. etc.

Cost of installation will vary but is about $1-3 per sq. ft. of home, less if you do it. Plastic pipe make it very easy to install. All you need is someone to run the calculations and develop a set of plans and you are good to go. NFPA 13D is the standard to follow. You may even have savings from your home insurance company.

What would be better for the fire department and you a working fire when they get to the house or a fire contained to the area of origin and one sprinkler operating?? The tract record for home fire sprinklers are OUTSTANDING!!!! If you need more info please contact me.

Now if you want to size that tank of your for the fire department, here is some things to consider.

NFPA 1142 has an entire standard for calculating how much water you need here is a sample....

For a dwelling with the following characteristics: (1) 50 ft by 24 ft; (2) 2 stories of 8 ft each; (3) with a pitched roof, 8 ft from attic floor to ridgepole; and (4) wood frame construction, the following calculations can be done:
50 × 24 = 1200 ft2
Height = 8 + 8 + 4 = 20 ft (For pitched roofs, use half the distance from attic floor to ridgepole.)
1200 × 20 = 24,000 ft3
The occupancy hazard classification number is 7 (see 5.2.5) and the construction classification number is 1.0, for a frame dwelling (see 6.2.6), resulting in the following calculations:
(24,000 /7) × 1.0 = 3429 gal
Minimum water supply equals 3429 gal.

In your new home also include a complete fire detection system with at least one CO detector. Local alarm is good , central station alarm is even better.

Sorry for the long post, as you can see I have a passion for this stuff. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[tc35dforme]

<font color="blue">NFPA 13D is the standard to follow </font> OOOPs, I said 13R before...I'm humbled by your excellent response!! We're going with a system when we build-out our addition. We have a nice open floor plan and plan on using exposed steel pipe painted black ( kind of the industrial look ). Water storage had been a problem before, but we're planning on a precast tank built into the crawl space of the addition to provide water. I believe previous calcs indicated that we needed around 400 gallons of storage.

Good advice ..... thanks.

 

[28RedHorses]

RonL,

My three cents...Call your local Department of Forestry and or Fire Department and see if they will use grant money to install a dry hydrant in the cistern.

A dry hydrant is nothing more then a PVC pipe that has a screen and a fire department connection. This allows the fire department to hook up and draft water from the source.

In Virginia there are grants available through the Department of Forestry for these. They typically cost aroung $1500 each.

My advise is also leave the fire fighting to the folks who are trained for that (volunteers or paid).

As a side note, is there no hydrant near by?

Again...my three cents.

28Red /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

[NY_Yankees_Fan]

TC,

The water supply has to do with the type of sprinkler head you will use. Here is what NFPA 13D says regarding the design of the system:

8.1.1.2* Sprinklers That Are Listed with Specific Discharge Criteria.
8.1.1.2.1 The system shall provide at least the flow required for the multiple and single sprinkler operating criteria specified by the sprinkler listing.
8.1.1.2.2* The system shall provide at least the flow required to produce a minimum discharge density of 0.05 gpm/ft2 (2.04 mm/min) to the design sprinklers.
8.1.2* Number of Design Sprinklers. The number of design sprinklers under flat, smooth, horizontal ceilings shall include all sprinklers within a compartment, up to a maximum of two sprinklers, that requires the greatest hydraulic demand.

And here is info on the water supply:

6.1.1 Every automatic sprinkler system shall have at least one automatic water supply.
6.1.2 Where stored water is used as the sole source of supply, the minimum quantity shall equal the water demand rate times 10 minutes unless permitted otherwise by 6.1.3.
6.1.3 Where stored water is used as the sole source of supply, the minimum quantity shall be permitted to equal the two-sprinkler water demand rate times 7 minutes where dwelling units meet the following criteria:
(1) One story in height
(2) Less than 2000 ft2 (186 m2) in area
6.2* Water Supply Sources.
The following water supply sources shall be considered to be acceptable by this standard:
(1) A connection to a reliable waterworks system with or without an automatically operated pump
(2) An elevated tank
(3) A pressure tank designed to American Society of Mechanical Engineers (ASME) standards for a pressure vessel with a reliable pressure source
(4) A stored water source with an automatically operated pump
6.3* Multipurpose Piping System.
A piping system serving both sprinkler and domestic needs shall be considered to be acceptable by this standard where the following conditions are met:
(1)* In common water supply connections serving more than one dwelling unit, 5 gpm (19 L/min) shall be added to the sprinkler system demand to determine the size of common piping and the size of the total water supply requirements where no provision is made to prevent flow into the domestic water system upon operation of a sprinkler.
(2) Smoke detectors are provided in accordance with NFPA 72®, National Fire Alarm Code®.
(3) All piping in the system supplying sprinklers is listed and conforms to the piping specifications of this standard.
(4) Piping connected to the system that supplies only plumbing fixtures complies with local plumbing and health authority requirements but is not required to be listed.
(5) Permitted by the local plumbing or health authority.
(6) A sign is affixed adjacent to the main shutoff valve that states in minimum ¼-inch letters, “Warning, the water system for this home supplies a fire sprinkler system that depends on certain flows and pressures being available to fight a fire. Devices that restrict the flow or decrease the pressure such as water softeners shall not be added to this system without a review of the fire sprinkler system by a fire protection specialist. Do not remove this sign.”
(7) Devices that restrict the flow or decrease the pressure, such as water treatment and filtration equipment, shall not be added to the system. Where water treatment and filtration equipment are installed, a listed automatic flow sensing bypass shall be installed in the supply piping that directs all water directly to the system.

 

[RonL]

Tom

Thanks for the information. I was vaguely considering a sprinkler system for the house when I built it. I'm going to give it more serious thought now. The house will not be built for another 4 or 5 years. I'll be doing the research on sprinklers in the meantime.
The land I'm building on is VERY rural. It is on a town maintained gravel road, half of which is closed down in the spring until after mud season. There are maybe 12 houses on a 12 to 15 mile section. There are NO hydrants. There are several mountain streams that join together further down from my property ( I'm about 2000 feet up). The nearest pool that a pumper would be able to draw from is maybe a mile or more away. Severa of the houses in the area have small man made ponds near them that I assume are for FD use. The town has no FD and relies on a neighboring town for their Fire Department. I suspect that the response time would be at least half an hour.
The town has a ditch next to the road that collects runoff and dumps onto my property. During heavy rains much water runs off. I want put a catch basin in and utilize that water. A periferal drain on the high side of my property will feed into the catch basin. I don't think I'll have any problem keeping a 6000 gallon cistern full. I want to put a stand pipe on the cistern for FD use. I also want to put a pump and hose line on it for my use. My property has 363 feet of frontage and spreads out to about 1100 feet at the rear. The area that I want to put the cistern is centered at the front of the property about 100 feet in. The property slopes down from the front. The house will be about 250 feet in. At present i have a 200 amp service that feeds a temporary distribution board. In the spring I going to run the 200 amp service to a small permanent building that will act as a distribution point. A seperate 200 amp service will run to the house when it is built. At present I have a 20 foot travel trailer and a 20 foot storage container on site. My backhoe and bulldozer are on site. In the next four years I expect to do all the site prep work, including clearing, trenching, foundations, septic, etc. I have pulled out piles of slash from the power line right of way. I have a burn pit in the open area near where I intend to put the cistern. Since starting this thread I have done some research. I'm thinking that a 1inch line would be very useful to me. I.m thinking that a 200 foot length of " redline" on a reel at the cistern would be appropriate. My preliminary calculations show that a 5HP electric pump would be adequate if I can find the right pump. I'm thinking of a 30GPM nozzle. This could also be usefull for "washdown" after doing concrete work.
I feel that I must repeat for some of the posters that I have NO intention of attacking a fully involved building. However, I do not want to be standing around for half an hour waiting for the fire department while a minor fire that could easily be knocked down with a hose turns into a major conflagration. I hope this clears up my intentions.

RonLl

 

[NY_Yankees_Fan]

Ron,

They are web sites that have a lot information about home fire sprinkler systems

web site

http://www.nfsa.org/index2.htm]
link


click on sprinkler info, lots of reading, white Paper and the Scottsdale report are great reading. The Scottsdale report is on a 10 study of sprinklers installed in homes in Scottsdale, Az.