First Truck for a Tractorman

RobS · Jul 30, 2001

I agree with Dan in that buying a truck is a little like buying a tractor. Buy more than you think you'll need and you'll quickly find uses for it.

Case in point: We traded an Explorer for a '97 F250HD 4X4 Crew Cab strictly for the four doors. Back then there weren't any of these baby crew cabs and I couldn't see cramming real people in the back seat of an extended cab. Got this truck for about the same money as a replacement Explorer would have been. Since then we added our second son and even before that got a little tired of tent camping (go ahead, call me a wimp) with little ones. It's just not relaxing and that's what vacations are supposed to be for, right. So, since we had a suitable tow vehicle, we jumped right in and got a fifth wheel camper. It's been great, we've been all over, the kids love it and we get genuine relaxation when we vacation. We've also picked up the property, tractor and trailer to haul it on more recently. I'm not saying we couldn't have made it in a mini-crew cab, but we've sure enjoyed the side benefits of a "real" truck. Of course, there is the mileage thing, but that's another thread /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Bird · Jul 30, 2001

Can someone explain when you should buy a dual rear wheel pickup?

Certainly not everyone needs dual rear wheels, but:
1. they're more stable, less sway, especially with a heavy load,
2. higher weight hauling capacity,
3. more insurance against tire blowouts which can make a truck a little squirrely to handle.

Now of course, I know folks who don't need duals, but buy them for looks.

When I first retired, I had a C3500, single rear wheels Chev. and pulled a 32' fifth-wheel trailer. Unfortunately, it only had a 350 cu. in. engine and 3.73 rear end; adequate, but barely. So I traded it for a C3500 dually with 454 cu. in. engine with 4.10 rear end (both were extended cab trucks). My fifth-wheel had 2,000 lbs. on the hitch, and that dually was a dream to drive, especially after I added the Gear Vendors overdrive unit to it.

The only problem was teaching my wife to turn corners wide enough to not run that right outside wheel over the curbs./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

Bird

Charlie_Iliff · Jul 30, 2001

There's a certain inevitability to it. The same instincts that have us all lusting for bigger and more powerful tractors - even for two acre ranches - applies to our taste in trucks.
Despite the growing accord that a crew cab 350 is the minimum, however, I need to register a mild dissent. I have a 1989 Chevy 1500, 350 ci gas, automatic overdrive, 4x4 standard cab, 8' bed. It has 130,000 miles on it of which about 75,000 has been hauling a fairly heavy steel horse trailer, with one or two event horses, over everything from highway to mountain gravel roads. The rig weighs about 5000 lb., all up with gear, hay, etc. With four wheel electric brakes, handling has not been a problem. Without them, I'd not leave the barnyard. I haven't lost a transmission yet. The engine has plenty of power - maintains the speed limit uphill in what we easterners call "mountains" (Maryland to Lexington Kentucky, for instance.) I have had absolutely no problems related to towing. My only recommendation would be to go to four-wheel hydraulic surge brakes, since this reduces the side load on the truck in downhill turns or braking in turns, unless the electric brakes are perfectly adjusted, which they never are.)
A traditional 1/2 ton truck will do fine to pull a small tractor on a trailer. Mine has no problem with occasional trips with a JD 950 or JD 2240 with loader, provided the trailer brakes are 4 wheel and working properly. (Did I mention that trailer brakes are essential?)

Charlie Iliff

cowboydoc · Jul 30, 2001

Charlie,
Your post is somewhat off the subject and therefore a little misleading. Yes if you only want to haul 5k as the most weight ever and not anymore then great a 1500 will work. BUT Glenn said that he would want to haul up to 8000 lbs. That is absolutely a no go with a half ton period.

glennmac · Jul 30, 2001

I havent yet researched the 4wd mechanisms. I want 4wd because it snows here, because I have visions of driving in my back acreage and bogs, and to help winch out my tractor if I get stuck again.

Are the 4wd systems like new SUV's and cars, which automatically kick in when slippage is detected. Or do you have to engage levers, or get out and lock hubs. Maybe all are available. Any preferences?

Also I was driving in a monster ford pickup Saturday that tows a 20' trailer and the owner says he would not have an automatic transmission for towing heavy loads. Is that a universal consensus? I dont like gears anymore--even on cars.

Charlie_Iliff · Jul 30, 2001

Cowboydoc:
No intent to mislead. I haven't gone back to check the book - and maybe don't have it any more, but my recollection is that with the towing package that I have, the rating may have been about the 8000 lb. I certainly have pulled that much without problem, without breaking anything or feeling down on power. The transmission hasn't fallen out, etc. The trailers, however, have been very carefully set up, with load positioned for appropriate tongue weight, load levelers and brakes. (I won't go into how I know how important that is, but it has to do with concrete block widely distributed over a dual highway, and a couple of lads with serious underwear cleaning to do. 3/4 ton truck and two-wheel trailer at speed) Certainly, the bigger the truck, the more comfortable, but provided the weight is within or close to the rated limit, the configuration of the load, and the tires and brakes of both vehicles are a lot more important for safety than the engine or transmission (or model number), and you don't have to ratchet up to a Mack tractor to get something that will pull an occasional trailer.
As an aside, for hauling anything as heavy as 8000 lb., my real recommendation is to hire it out. Then your pickup can be a commuter *** wheelbarrow which is its primary purpose, anyway.

Charlie Iliff

RobS · Jul 30, 2001

Glenn, truck 4X4 systems are much more like our tractors than what you'd find in an Audi Quattro. Transfer case with high and low range, some with full time some part time, switch activated or lever. None smart enough to detect wheel slippage. Normal drive is rear axle with front on manual locking hubs, automatic locking hubs or vacuum disconnect. Rear axles are available with limited slip features.

Once you understand the differences, the choices are purely personal. My choice is manual transmission, manual shift X-fer case and manual locking hubs. I'm just a manual sort of guy though /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Bird · Jul 30, 2001

Richard, if I were doing a lot of towing (like I did as a full time RVer), I'd agree with you, but this time I have to agree with Charlie. Glennmac said to occasionally tow 8,000 pounds, and I wouldn't hesitate at all to do that with a properly equipped half ton truck. And you could still be within the manufacturer's rating. I know there's been some discussion about staying well below the manufacturer's maximum and that's a great idea, but not absolutely necessary. Of course, I also believe the driver is even more important than the size of the truck.

Bird

Bird · Jul 30, 2001

says he would not have an automatic transmission for towing heavy loads. Is that a universal consensus?

No, it isn't a universal consensus. There are certainly a lot of folks who prefer the manual transmission, and I understand the advantages, but until you get into the big over the road things like 18-wheelers, I'll bet there's a lot more pickups with automatics towing trailers. I haven't kept up with all the ratings the last 6 years or so, but in the past at least, some of the pickup manufacturers rated their pickups to tow more with the automatic than with the manual transmission (I believe it was because of clutch problems with the manuals in some cases).

Bird

cowboydoc · Jul 30, 2001

Bird,
I can see where you're coming from but for the little bit of money and alot of times less money, I'd go for at least a 3/4 ton pickup. I've seen alot of wrecks, as I'm sure you have, with rigs that have carried too much weight for what they were designed for. Good friend of mine lost his arm in a car crash that shouldn't have happened if he wouldn't have been overloaded on his half ton. To avoid one crash is certainly worth the little bit of money to up to a 3/4 ton and be completely safe.

As far as autos go on the big trucks anyway they are all detuned for the autos because the auto can't handle the torque and hp that they put out. For example with Ford the manual is rated at 275 hp and the auto is rated at 250 hp. No doubt if you know how to drive one the manual will last far and above the auto. Auto is really nice to have though.

Bird · Jul 30, 2001

alot of times less money, I'd go for at least a 3/4 ton pickup

Glennmac did say he wanted a used one, and twice I've bought used 3/4 ton trucks when all I needed was a half ton, but found I could buy the 3/4 ton cheaper.

As for the automatics, they keep coming up with new and "better" ones, so who knows what the future holds. There are automatic transmissions on the market right now that can handle the torque just fine. The biggest problem is still that the manual transmissions get better fuel economy for the big rigs. One of my brothers is an over the road driver and his company recently bought several new tractors with an entirely different kind of automatic transmission that the manufacturer told them would do as well on fuel mileage as the manuals - and so far that has not been the case. Now the manufacturer is telling them it'll improve when the trucks get about 80,000 miles on them./w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif Now I certainly don't know, but that seems like a rather long break-in period to me./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

Bird

cowboydoc · Jul 30, 2001

Bird,
For gas engines you're right the autos can handle the torque ok. The problem is the diesels. Ford and Dodge can't keep an automatic in their trucks because of the torque that they put out. Chevy put the heavy duty Allison in theirs and Ford is coming out with another new one for next that is supposed to handle it as well. Guess we'll see.

glennmac · Jul 30, 2001

Two of the reasons this fellow had for preferring manual had to do with driving hills. Automatics "hunt" too much on the up and down hills; and the manual gears provide "braking" when going down long hills.

You fellows in Texas and Iowa may have seen hills on tv or in magazines.

Bird · Jul 30, 2001

Yeah, Richard, I know about the problems Dodge had. What I meant was that there are transmissions built that can handle the torque of the big 18-wheelers' diesel engines, and big motorhome diesel engines. I don't know why the pickup trucks haven't found the right one, unless of course, the only transmissions that are strong enough are too big and heavy./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

Bird

cowboydoc · Jul 30, 2001

I'm an Idaho boy Glenn so I know all about hills, rather mountains and I will take a manual anyday for many of the reasons just mentioned. Now with that said however, as Bird has pointed out, the autos are getting more sophisticated. The new Allison on the Chevy actually downshifts for you going down hills. If it works like they say it does that would be a transmission worth having!!! They are also supposed to be able to handle up to 650 lbs. of torque which would make it a reliable transmission behind the diesel. I'm a little skeptical because the last Ford auto tranny was supposed to handle the torque of the diesel too and they're already scrapping it for another complete redesign after only three years. If Chevy gets this right with the Allison Ford and Dodge are going to be playing some serious catchup. I know I digress but that's my application for a truck. For a gas engine it would hold up for a long time.

As far as hills go you don't know what it's like to go down a real mountain until you've lost your brakes. They burn up fast if you get going too fast down some of those grades in the west and then try and stop. Brakes burn up and you are on your own son! Learned the hardway that you start out slow and keep going slow down a mountain. That's where I'm talking about especially that there will be a monumental difference between a half ton and three quarter ton. Not only are they designed to pull more they're also designed to stop more which is really what's important! Remember when the new Ford came out and it showed it pulling that huge ship? Well sure it can pull it but do you really want to drive out onto into traffic with it?

Edited by cowboydoc on 07/30/01 08:06 PM (server time).

Bird · Jul 30, 2001

Glennmac, I can certainly understand his preference for the manual when driving hills, and would even agree with him, unless you have something like the '89 dually I had with the Gear Vendors, which I could use like a 6-speed manual.

And You fellows in Texas and Iowa may have seen hills on tv or in magazines.

You may recall that Cowboydoc is from Idaho, and did you know that Texas has taller mountains than anything east of the Mississippi River? The first time I entered Idaho (on I-84 from Oregon), I stopped at a tourist information/rest area for a map and a very nice young lady there asked where we were going. I told her anywhere that it was cooler and she said, "Well, if you weren't pulling that big trailer, I'd suggest highway 21 up into the Sawtooth area." Naturally, I asked if it was a bad road (no, just steep hills), or if there was a lot of traffic that a slow trailer would interfere with (no), so that's where we went. If she'd only known what a nice, pleasant, easy drive that was./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif Lots of misconceptions about trailer towing.

Bird

glennmac · Jul 30, 2001

Highest point in Texas is Guadalupe Peak at 8749 ft. So you are right. But it aint like that where you are, Bird.

Texas is so big; it is indeed a land of contrasts. As you drive in from New Mexico, I remember it being like a giant series of steps you descend--down all those plateaus. Then it becomes rolling hills until right at Austin, after which it all flattens out.

I wonder if your claim would have still held true without the Gadsten Purchase. Who's our historical geography expert.

Bird · Jul 30, 2001

That's a pretty fair description, Glennmac. Then I guess you know what the highest peak east of the Mississippi is, too. I spent the night up there one moonless night; I believe it was the darkest night I've ever seen outdoors.

Bird

cowboydoc · Jul 30, 2001

Bird,
Sorry I misunderstood your post. Yes you are absolutely right!!!! Motorhomes and trucks have got the autos to handle the torque no problem at all! There have been numerous discussions over why they don't go the similiar route with pickups. Cost has usually been the main factor but good gravy a couple thousand for a transmission that would last would go over like hot butter on pancakes for the crowd I know. It really is sad that the first attempt after 25 years of a heavy duty auto in a diesel is now with the Chevy.

glennmac · Jul 30, 2001

Bird, without looking it up, I'm not sure. Mt. Washington in NH is certainly the highest in the Northeast. I'm guessing there might be something higher in the Smokies, partially because I'm not sure there's any place to stay on top of Mt. Washington unless you're tenting. Tell me.