Floppy Bucket

[Walt P]

Hello,
Long time lurker and new tractor owner here. I purchased a new Massey Ferguson 2605h 2 weeks ago. Love the tractor, except for one thing. The loader suffers from a severe case of floppy bucket. If I go to back drag, set my bucket about 45 degrees from the ground, put the arms into float mode, the bucket just flattens out on the ground. The bucket has about 45 to 50 degrees of free play! If I measure the movement on the cylinders, they move 3" freely. I can purge the air out of the system by putting the joystick in dump mode, the bucket will tilt down, then not move for 7 seconds while air is purged, then the bucket hits the stops. All is well now, until the next time I curl then dump the bucket and we start all over again. My dealer says that this is normal operation, nothing that they can do to correct the issue. I cannot believe that this is normal. Anyone have any ideas where to start to correct the problem?

Sorry for the long post, any help would be appreciated.
Walt.

 

[George2615]

See other threads (similar) at the bottom of the page. I had the same problem too. Seems to be solved by installing an adjustable restrictor valve in one line.

 

[Walt P]

Thanks for the reply. From what I read on the net, I kinda figured that it would require a restrictor of some sort in the bucket circuit.
That will give me something to do this weekend. Fun........

 

[Walter L]

Walt check out this utube.

Do You Have Floppy Bucket Syndrome? - YouTube

 

[Dave M7040]

Try swapping the loader arm valve for the bucket valve to see if the problem continues.

A regen feature is becoming common on loader valves.

Regen is a "feature" of most modern FEL (Front End Loader) valves, it's on the Dump (joystick far right) circuit, and is also referred to as "Fast Dump". The reason it is nice to have is that without it, the weight of a filled bucket can actually "pull" the bucket down faster than the fluid can enter the other side of the cylinder, this will create a air pocket and give the bucket a "floppy" feeling until the joystick is held in the dump mode a few seconds to refill the cylinder pushing the air past the seals. So we add "regen" or "regenerative" function to the valve.

Regen solves this problem by actually filling both sides of the cylinder at the same time with hydraulic fluid. But how will that work you might ask? Well, because there is more volume on the side of the cylinder that extends it since the rod is taking up space in the other side, it "overpowers" the rod side and lets the cylinder extend-thereby dumping the bucket. So since now both sides of the cylinder are "pressurized", the air pocket can not develop, eliminating the "floppy" bucket syndrome. One other added bonus is that the bucket actually dumps faster due to the higher flow rate required to do all this, that's why it's referred to as "fast dump" sometimes.

Something to investigate to see if your loader valve has this feature.

Dave M7040

 

[oldnslo]

Dave
Good thought except with regen on lift cylinders he would not be able to lift very much

Walt P
Does your loader have one or two bucket tilt cylinders? On my Branson I have a single cylinder and installed a counterbalance valve to resolve this issue especially when using the forks. More expensive and more difficult to install than a flow control or orifice but requires positive pressure for the cylinder to move under all operating conditions I.e. slow fine movement or full dump speed. So provides superior control with the forks

 

[Dave M7040]

Dave
Good thought except with regen on lift cylinders he would not be able to lift very much

Walt P
Does your loader have one or two bucket tilt cylinders? On my Branson I have a single cylinder and installed a counterbalance valve to resolve this issue especially when using the forks. More expensive and more difficult to install than a flow control or orifice but requires positive pressure for the cylinder to move under all operating conditions I.e. slow fine movement or full dump speed. So provides superior control with the forks

My comments on swapping hoses was only to rule out a valve problem. Once he had done that test reverting to the proper configuration would be in order.

Since his tractor is only two weeks old, I am thinking he likely has the regen feature but may not know how to access it.

Dave M7040

 

[ericm979]

I put a restrictor on my Branson's BL25 loader. It restricts the flow out of the curl cylinders during dump. It's not a complete fix, at least on my loader. If I adjust it to eliminate all flop it slows dump enough to be noticeable. Sometimes I want the bucket to dump fast enough to shake out material stuck inside. So I usually keep it at a setting where it's reducing flop but not eliminating it, and the bucket still dumps quickly. I installed it in a place where I can reach it from the operators station if I raise the loader some and stand up.

 

[Walt P]

Appreciate all the replies, I'll try to answer in order.

Walt, I watched the video, the way his bucket flops around, is the way mine does, I think mine even more so. I can go thru the steps to clear the air out of the system, and it will work. until the next time I curl the bucket. As soon as I dump the bucket, the issues are reintroduced.

Dave, I did swap the hoses, the bucket still acted the same, but when I lowered the arms, well, the only way I can describe it, the arms seemed to "chatter" on the way down. I lowered them very slowly, put the hoses back and haven't attempted it again. This tractor is a very basic unit, doesn't even have a cup holder. The loader valve does not have a regen detent.

Oldnslo, the tractor does have 2 cylinders on the bucket. The counterbalance valve sounds like something I need to look into, if it will work with 2 cylinders.

Update. The dealer told me that when running the tractor under 1000 RPM's, this behavior is to be expected. Well, I found that engine speed did not make any difference until you're running at 1500 or better. At that point, the problem wasn't solved, it just became erratic. There may be a little less, or a lot less play. Last night, I took a wrench to the connectors on the cylinders for the bucket dump, and found them loose, relatively loose. After tightening them up, the bucket reacts much better. Engine speeds over 1200 RPM's and the bucket is steady. I will check everything down stream of the loader valve this weekend. I think that with a little wrench time and a couple of adjustable flow restrictors, the issue will go from intolerable to slightly annoying. I still think the loader valve is bad or of a poor design, it is very sensitive on the loader arms. If you're not very careful when lowering the arms, they will almost go into free fall. It doesn't take much movement of the joystick. When traveling at anything more than walking speed, hit a bump and the joystick bounces all around, commanding the loader to move every which way. There is no lockout on the loader joystick.

Walt

 

[Leejohn]

What size is in and out ports on the control valve and can you tell if you have load check in the valve?

 

[Walt P]

Leejohn, that spec is not in the books I have. I will need to pull the connectors to find out. As far as I know there is not a check valve in the loader control.

 

[oldnslo]

Appreciate all the replies, I'll try to answer in order.

Oldnslo, the tractor does have 2 cylinders on the bucket. The counterbalance valve sounds like something I need to look into, if it will work with 2 cylinders.

Walt

Walt,
Yes the counterbalance will work with two cylinders. The installation might be slightly more difficult since you will have to install the valve where the hoses tee to feed both cylinders. Counterbalance will cost significantly more that a flow restrictor & require more plumbing since it also requires a pilot signal from the dump side of the cylinder. You only need one restrictor installed in the rod end line to the dump cylinders. I would recommend a version that restricts in one direction and free flows in the other. The reason for this is that a restriction that slows the curl will also reduce the curl force and speed.

Yes the valve is the culprit. Some valves have almost no metering capabilities which causes the uncontrolled drop of the loader and is also the problem of floppy bucket. A good loader valve will meter the oil out of the curl cylinders while allowing oil to fill the other end. Seems like some of these lower cost valves do not do this very well. The original valve on my Branson was terrible, replacement is better but still not even close to what a true loader valve will do when sized and designed for that application.

Hopefully a little wrenching and a simple flow control will get you operational.

 

[Walt P]

Yes the valve is the culprit.

Thanks for the information, funny, the only things I don't like about the tractor all revolve around the loader valve.
I wonder if that is a hint?

 

[Avenger]

I have the same problem on my tractor. I put a flow restrictor on the return line and adjusted it to a happy medium between lugging the engine down and moving the bucket, while reducing the floppyness. All my research thus far has indicated that I need a better control valve. However, I am not 'good enough' to figure out which one will work for my tractor.

Running the engine at higher RPM does seem to reduce the amount of floppyness, but not eliminate it.

If your joystick moves while bouncing over things, you might want to look at your linkage or retention system inside the joystick. That seems odd to me. Mine stays put, and I drive over some pretty incredible terrain. The 'neutral' position should not move like the stick shift in your manual transmission truck. It should be centered and not floppy there.

After a while, with my tractor, I have gotten used to the floppy bucket. Still rather annoying, but I have adapted. However, if someone recommends a better control valve that will work, I am willing to pay out the $$ to replace it forthwith!

 

[Dave M7040]

Take the time to call Cross Manufacturing and talk to one of their tech people. 620-324-5525

I have found their advice friendly and understandable.

Cross Manufacturing

Dave M7040

 

[Walt P]

I finally had a chance to talk to an AGCO rep. He said that the hydraulic pump just cannot keep up with the demand when dumping the bucket. His only suggestion is to up the RPM's and make the best of it. Not the answer I was hoping for, but not surprised by it either. I will admit, I was babying the tractor, looks like that is not the best thing to do. I was told to run it hard, it's built to work, not cruse Main street on.

Thanks everyone for the suggestions and advice. I am going to add an adjustable flow restrictor, just to see it it will help.

Walt

 

[oldnslo]

Avenger, Walt,
increasing the engine RPM increases the pump flow. The increased pump helps offset the poor metering in the valve by creating a larger pressure drop when the valve is partially shifted. I have installed a Prince valve on my Branson due to the original Nimco being dangerous to operate. It is better but still did not solve the floppy bucket.

First you need to find out what the flow rate if for you FEL. Then start looking for loader valves rated for similar flow. NOTE: you Must have load checks on both functions.

Brand, Prince, Cross, Bucher, Husco all make valves for front end loaders. I suspect Husco would be the highest quality but they are also expensive. Several members have both Brand & Prince with very few complaints. Have not read much on Bucher valves.

 

[ddbackhoe]

Take the time to call Cross Manufacturing and talk to one of their tech people. 620-324-5525

I have found their advice friendly and understandable.

Cross Manufacturing

Dave M7040

:thumbsup: They've been helpful when Ive needed parts and such.

 

[Leejohn]

The way it looks to me is the mfg. put 25 gal valves on a 10 gpm tractor.

 

[kthompson]

Do check your hydro oil level. FEL cylinders can pull good bit of oil. I have a 90 hp JD and it has very good pump capacity. However running too low rpms, running loader in hot weather find the steering will suffer at times making hard tight turn.