Flu vaccination, yes or no.

[NorTracNY]

OK, the thread got me to looking at studies again. Based upon the unfortunate change in the CDC website I had to search elsewhere. Of course there are several anti-vaccine sites that list research studies, but to avoid the bias, I avoided those sites.

As for the effectiveness in the elderly, this study looked at a significant population and found that there is a bias of those that get the flu shot. It appears that the healthy people may be more likely to get a flu shot, and therefore there is a bias if you only study the people during the flu season.
https://academic.oup.com/ije/articl...nce-of-bias-in-estimates-of-influenza-vaccine

Along the lines of whether healthcare people should be forced to get a shot. Well that all sounds well and good, but there doesn't appear to be science supporting it.
Health worker flu vaccine data insufficient to show protection for patients | CIDRAP
Influenza Vaccination of Healthcare Workers: Critical Analysis of the Evidence for Patient Benefit Underpinning Policies of Enforcement

I think it's clear why many doctors are not pushing the vaccine. There certainly are a lot of studies out there...
Association between the 28–9 Seasonal Influenza Vaccine and Pandemic H1N1 Illness during Spring–Summer 29: Four Observational Studies from Canada
Increased risk of noninfluenza respiratory virus infections associated with receipt of inactivated influenza vaccine. - PubMed - NCBI
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20614424

It's good to see you can still read good science from NIH. And as we all know, ALWAYS look for the money trail.... From the last study.

"Influenza vaccines have a modest effect in reducing influenza symptoms and working days lost. There is no evidence that they affect complications, such as pneumonia, or transmission.WARNING: This review includes 15 out of 36 trials funded by industry (four had no funding declaration). An earlier systematic review of 274 influenza vaccine studies published up to 2007 found industry funded studies were published in more prestigious journals and cited more than other studies independently from methodological quality and size. Studies funded from public sources were significantly less likely to report conclusions favorable to the vaccines. The review showed that reliable evidence on influenza vaccines is thin but there is evidence of widespread manipulation of conclusions and spurious notoriety of the studies. The content and conclusions of this review should be interpreted in light of this finding."

 

[Bird]

FYI, I'm happy to continue this discussion but will be limited to pecking away on an iPhone for the next few days as I take my daughter to her hockey tournament. It's an important public health discussion and I'd like to fully participate. Sorry if I don't reply quickly.

Thanks for your participation. I think you've explained very well why people should get vaccinated (for the flu as well as other things), but of course, there will always be those who believe they know better than the doctors, just as there are always those who know better than the professionals in every occupation.

Today is one year since I last saw my primary care physician, so I've got an appointment in about an hour and a half.:laughing: I think he might know a little more about medicine than I do.:laughing:

 

[tcreeley]

Like buying anything. Some say one thing, others something else. Those with a vested monetary interest - insist.

Live and let live. If you want a vaccine, I'm not stopping you. Don't force me to get one if I don't want it. Your vaccination protects you against what I don't do - so no big deal.

In Maine the state department of health wants boys to get the gardasil vaccine for cervical cancer. It is in the political works. - Another money maker for guess who. No thanks.

In Ca they are pushing mandatory vaccinations for kids and planning on taking kids away from their families if they don't get them vaccinated. No exemptions. -That wave is traveling across the country. - Guess who is promoting it - pharma investing in the bottom line.

 

[davesl708]

I have no objection to people getting vaccinated. That is their choice. Forcing people to get vaccinated is another issue.
I am 58 years old and have never had the flu. I don't get colds either. The last sore throat I had was when I was six.

I have medical types telling me I have to get a flu shot so I don't get the flu. Having worked for large corporations and coming from a large family I have been exposed to the flu and cold viruses many times and never get the flu or colds.

Why would I risk the side effects of the vaccines when my immune system protects me naturally? Why should the government force me to get vaccinated?

 

[oosik]

Bird - No, I just think my life style keeps me from getting contagious diseases. It is seldom or never, that I participate in large gatherings - theatre, sporting events, community gatherings etc - where you can come in contact with contagions. Its not that I superior resistance - I'm just kind of a hermit.

 

[ultrarunner]

Not clear what your doctor was thinking unless you work in a healthcare facility or there was an outbreak in your community of mumps etc or, as may be the case, you were born outside the USA. That is a general CDC/ACIP recommendation that foreign born adults receive at least one dose of MMR or document serologies. The thinking is that we don't know what vaccines were given outside the US. Probably not an issue for someone born in Salzburg (like three of my brothers born there when we lived in Schloss Aigen in the mid 1950's!) but generally an issue for immigrants who arrive from other parts of the world with non standard documentation. Giving the MMR in such circumstances is so much easier and essentially harmless that many docs just do it rather than hassle with serologies. MMR vaccination or documented serology is required for healthcare staff too.

Regarding Hep B, the initial target was high risk groups. That worked pretty well and the vaccine is very safe so the goal posts were moved to get the lower risk groups covered too. I haven't looked up the data recently but the general thought is that while high risk groups are obviously at higher risk, the total number of preventable cases in the low risk population may well be higher. Kind of like first requiring NASCAR drivers to wear seatbelts during races and then deciding that granny and little Suzy should also wear seatbelts when they drive to the supermarket. Low risk but high volume and a safe intervention.

Thank you for responding...

I'm California born and raised... Director of Engineering for a small community Hospital and for the last 20+ years working at our 6 OR outpatient surgery center... if a patient isn't healthy the elective surgery is canceled... with no ER the risk is greatly diminished... lots of ortho, eyes, plastic with a little ENT in the mix... we do about 500 procedures per month... I do not do patient care and will go out of my to avoid patients.

Hep B vaccine does have me concerned... as my Doctor has said we are all different and he is a big advocate of personal family history and long life without medical intervention is the norm... good old farming stock... Mom is one of 10 kids and all were born at home at the farm... Grandmother and Grandfather never spent a day in the Hospital and never took any kind of medication... Grandfather, in his mid 90's started to get dizzy... he did get checked out and was told he needed a pacemaker which he refused and his decision was respected... still doing farm chores in his 90's and kind of the town historian... only hope to be so lucky!

I do have a lot of relatives in the Salzburg and by coincidence they are all about organic foods... will not eat meat unless they know the farmer that raised the cow or pig... raise there own pesticide free vegetables, etc... it really is a big deal over there...

Still remember visiting and taking my vitamins and boy did I get a lecture about popping pills!!!

 

[IslandTractor]

Thank you for responding...

I'm California born and raised... Director of Engineering for a small community Hospital and for the last 20+ years working at our 6 OR outpatient surgery center... if a patient isn't healthy the elective surgery is canceled... with no ER the risk is greatly diminished... lots of ortho, eyes, plastic with a little ENT in the mix... we do about 500 procedures per month... I do not do patient care and will go out of my to avoid patients.

Hep B vaccine does have me concerned... as my Doctor has said we are all different and he is a big advocate of personal family history and long life without medical intervention is the norm... good old farming stock... Mom is one of 10 kids and all were born at home at the farm... Grandmother and Grandfather never spent a day in the Hospital and never took any kind of medication... Grandfather, in his mid 90's started to get dizzy... he did get checked out and was told he needed a pacemaker which he refused and his decision was respected... still doing farm chores in his 90's and kind of the town historian... only hope to be so lucky!

I do have a lot of relatives in the Salzburg and by coincidence they are all about organic foods... will not eat meat unless they know the farmer that raised the cow or pig... raise there own pesticide free vegetables, etc... it really is a big deal over there...

Still remember visiting and taking my vitamins and boy did I get a lecture about popping pills!!!

If you work at a hospital then you will be treated just like the docs and nurses. Don't try to find an evidence based rationale as it boils down to just keeping it simple. Otherwise the poor occupational health and infection control people would be engaged full time in adjudicating employee exemption requests.

Hep B is important because if an infected woman gives birth then her child has a very high risk of chronic Hep B disease which is "Bigly" bad. We can and do screen pregnant women so appropriate preventative measures can be taken at birth but it makes even more sense to simply prevent women from becoming infected. Of course avoiding and sharing needles seems like a no brainer but we all know that a certain percentage of our population will do that. If a man has a wild youth and becomes infected, he can later infect one of our daughters. The only way to prevent that type of transmission (which probably accounts for most transmission worldwide) is to vaccinate the whole population. We do in fact vaccinate all kids and have for the past 25 plus years. Probably not such a big deal that a 60 year old is unvaccinated today but again your case falls into the "hospital employee" category so it would be an uphill battle to prove you aren't at risk. If you are a hospital facilities engineer there is probably not much exposure but if you were a biomedical engineer in the same hospital...you'd be exposed to blood all the time and often wouldn't recognize it.

 

[IslandTractor]

I have no objection to people getting vaccinated. That is their choice. Forcing people to get vaccinated is another issue.
I am 58 years old and have never had the flu. I don't get colds either. The last sore throat I had was when I was six.

I have medical types telling me I have to get a flu shot so I don't get the flu. Having worked for large corporations and coming from a large family I have been exposed to the flu and cold viruses many times and never get the flu or colds.

Why would I risk the side effects of the vaccines when my immune system protects me naturally? Why should the government force me to get vaccinated?

I can assure you that you've had the flu and colds. What you really mean to say is that you have never been symptomatic. That happens. When we are infected with a virus, the virus often causes relatively few symptoms and it is actually your own immune system response that causes fever, aches and pains etc. If a particular individual has a relatively weak inflammatory response to infection then they will have very mild symptoms which may not even be recognized. Having a "weak" inflammatory response doesn't mean the immune system is incapable of eliminating the viral infection. To use a football analogy, you can win a game by scoring lots of points (inflammatory response) or by playing stingy defense. Your immune system seems to play a stingy defense rather than shooting it out with the bad guys. (Bad guys = Atlanta Falcons by the way)

 

[dmccarty]

Regarding Hep B...

A few years ago we were setting up a trip to China. We would be visiting a boat yard along a river and we knew the river was full of sewage and chemicals. While we did not plan to be swimming in said river, falling it was possible so we wanted a Hep B shot. The wife went to the doctor, told them what we were doing and she got a Hep B and a tetanus shot. I went to the same office and they would only give me the tetanus shot. :confused3: The office charged me several hundred dollars for the shot as well. We don't go to that doctors office anymore. So I went to a drug store that gives shots and got the Hep B which I also need for one of my jobs but have put off doing for years.

When we got to China the river was pretty dirty but did not stink of sewage even though there were at least two sewage outfalls from the boat yard and there had to be some from the boat yard next to the one we were visiting. Given that hundreds of people worked in both yards the water was dirty to say the least. We were in the middle of a small city and I assume the sewage from the town was also in the water and the upstream cities were also dumping in to the river.

The ramps and docks to the boats we were visiting would be very easy to fall into the river which was not a place I would want to be. I was on one of the boats one day when I smelled a chemical. Smelled like paint thinner but the smell got stronger and stronger. At first I thought the workers were painting a ship at the yard just upriver from me but as the smell got worse it was obvious that the chemical was in the water and floating down stream. :shocked: The smell was so bad I went down below on one of the boats to get out of that noxious cloud.

The reason I mention all of this is because of what happened one day...

Between the boats and the shore line there were nets to catch fish. Water plants had been washed into the nets and one day, an old guy who was retired from the boat jumped into the river to clean out the plants and see if the nets had any fish. :shocked: He had caught a couple good sized carp and he was pretty happy. He had some free fish.

Now, those are carp. Bottom feeders. What could they have been eating between the two sewer out falls. :shocked: Circle of life I guess. He seemed happy and healthy and I doubt he had ever had a Hep B or a tetanus shot. Having said that, I am glad we had the shots and did not go into the water. :laughing::laughing::laughing:

Later,
Dan

 

[IslandTractor]

Like buying anything. Some say one thing, others something else. Those with a vested monetary interest - insist.

Live and let live. If you want a vaccine, I'm not stopping you. Don't force me to get one if I don't want it. Your vaccination protects you against what I don't do - so no big deal.

In Maine the state department of health wants boys to get the gardasil vaccine for cervical cancer. It is in the political works. - Another money maker for guess who. No thanks.

In Ca they are pushing mandatory vaccinations for kids and planning on taking kids away from their families if they don't get them vaccinated. No exemptions. -That wave is traveling across the country. - Guess who is promoting it - pharma investing in the bottom line.

There is profit in drugs and vaccines. No question. Our current narcotic overdose epidemic can easily be shown to be directly caused by pharmaceutical companies pushing doctors to prescribe narcotics early and often. Disgusting example of capitalism gone rogue.

The vaccine industry is actually kind of a tail end charlie in the pharmaceutical world. They can be profitable but are not nearly as profitable as most other pharma products. There may be a few vaccine millionaires but not nearly as many as traditional pharma or biotech millionaires and billionaires. There is also a clear link between the public health community and vaccine producers but luckily there are no solo private practitioner public health types who can be easily manipulated by pharmaceutical detail reps (you should see the women they hire!). Virtually all public health decisions regarding vaccines are made at the State government or Federal government level by career civil servants. They don't see pharma reps at all. The CDC convenes a panel called the ACIP (Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices) every year to discuss data and make recommendations. The people on that committee are not even allowed to accept a donut and coffee from industry. Literally. The ACIP does not set costs of vaccines. That is up to the company and insurance companies and Medicare. Those cost decisions are made pretty much independent of the scientific review of vaccine efficacy and safety. Where pharma does use their marketing skills is in states without universal vaccination programs where individual doctors make commercial decisions about whether to buy vaccines or not. I've always practiced in Massachusetts where the vast majority of vaccines are procured through the state health dept and provided for free. That means that the pharma reps just waste their time talking to docs as the docs are not the purchasing decision makers.