For the college folks

   / For the college folks #31  
I had so much of that english litter crap from grade school, through high school into collage that to this day I have not and will never again read a novel, poem or anything other than a text book. Enough is enough, if I had any interest in what a charter or author was thinking I would have been a psychology major.
BTW, I have read Shelly, Load Bryan, Homer, Voltaire, Claudius, James Joyce, Stevenson, Mark Twain, Alcott, Damon Runyon, EA Poe, Pulitzer, V Hugo, HB Stowe, Collodi, most of LF Baum, Jack London, J Verns, E Bronte, and many others that do not come to mind now.
 
   / For the college folks #32  
I learned that Robert Frost poem in grade school, I think..
Walking thru woods on a snowy evening.

There are some crazy courses in college, but taking one or two never hurt anyone. I took bowling, basketball officiating, and backpacking as an engineering student. One of the best courses I took was labeled philosophy, but it was logical reasoning, a very good course.

I have also taught some college courses. I find it more important to have the ability to learn, than to necessarily have a degree. There are some fine smart people that only graduated from the school of hard knocks. One of the best computer programmers I ever worked with did not have a college degree, but could out program anyone with a degree. I remember one demo program he wrote to illustrate to a company what he wanted them to do. It was so good that the company wanted to buy his demo as their starting point. I know a high school kid right now who is an excellent programmer, he just has a passion for it. Both of these guys I would hire in a minute, just because of their passion, and proven ability without a degree.
Some jobs, however, should have a person with a degree in them. Some of the county head building and permitting positions come to mind.
 
   / For the college folks #33  
Well now Mr Bird, good of you to bring up that there Robert Frost fellow, I got a feeling you and I both got abut the same opinion of him. He made a good living shoveling horse s#!t onto paper plain & true. My 3rd wife had a boy she named after him, Robert, and I sit here to tell you that boy took right after that poet, completely useless never did a lick of work in his life boy and probably never will unless somebody brings back the chain gang and he gets on one. That kid not only wouldn't work, he wouldn't study a book neither, but he knew how to bottom deal a deck of cards real good by time he was 14, and knew how to cheat the system is school too. He graduated high school as a Academic Scholar on High Honro Roll and he was classified as a special needs kid cause he was Government certified officially dumb. Last heard he used my name trying to get a job someplace, and done some learning in the process. He learned a lot of people got him on their blackball list.

Far as 18 year old kids not knowing what they want to do for a first carear, so they go sit on their butt spending parents money drinking beer and doping, them kids only need one liberal art, that'd be some big fellow named Art liberally kicking their butts till they got off em and found work. Worst dang thing anybnody ever did for a kid is send him to college out of high school. How they ever going to learn about a job of work carear when everybody doing the teaching in them colleges never did a lick of work themself? How you going to teach somebody something you never were able to do yourself.

Shoot over here to RIT they got a program for kids to learn to print newspapers, and another one to learn how to weave baskets, and one to weave fabrics. Each and every one of them programs costs $100,000 + for just the learning, and somebody gotta pay that. Then the kid graduates and really gets to learning, he learns the newspapers are going out of business, every dang town has both a weaver and a basket weaver and eBay is killing both of them with selling cloth and baskets. I mean do these college executives breathe air or are they on some special gas? Where's their concience selling a kid a diploma in some job that don't exist?

Far as literature is concerned, I'm kind of partial to Mark Twain, particularly his thinking & writing on child raising. Only problem is you can't hardly find a good barrel any more.
 
   / For the college folks #34  
By far, the most valuable classes I took for my engineering degree were English. They were valuable, not because I enjoyed them or because they exposed me to things I would not otherwise have experienced, but because they taught me useful communication skills that I could apply to my career. The English classes have helped put food on the table my entire adult life.

If you want to learn a hobby (poetry, badminton, bowling, art history, etc.) then by all means do so and have fun. But don't spend $80K to learn a hobby unless you have more cash (not loans) than you know what to do with. Nobody would consider it smart to pay $200K for a house that is only worth $100K. But we do the exact same thing with college degrees and nobody thinks a thing about it. We have gone over the edge expecting people to spend $80K to get an undergraduate degree in psychology and then another $60K for a masters in counseling so the graduate can make $40K/year as a social worker. Go figure. Really. Go figure.

Six or seven years after college, I considered getting a master's degree in engineering. Then I did the math. I figured the cost of tuition and books. I counted the lost income due to going to school instead of working 40 hours/week. I then looked at what my increase in salary would be. It would have taken decades for me to break even on the deal. So I did not get the advanced degree. Instead, I worked on increasing my career skills in areas companies would be willing to pay for. That strategy turned out to provide much better financial returns than the masters degree.

In this country we have lost our minds going tens of thousands of dollars into debt to get something like a 4 year biology degree without having learned skills for which someone would be will to pay. In my opinion, if you are 18 years old and don't know what you want to do for your career, then get a job and save up your money. The best way to find a mushroom is to spend time in a place where there are mushrooms. The best way to find a career is to spend time in a place where there are careers (i.e. the market place).

Once you find yourself and figure out what you want to do, then go to college if college is required for your chosen career. The last place you need to be when trying to find your career is in college. Teaching careers are the careers that you can find in college. Business careers, engineering careers, nursing careers, etc. don't normally exist in college. They exist in business. They exist in engineering firms. They exist in hospitals, etc. Since careers (other than teaching careers) don't normally exist in college, it's futile to search for them there. The engineering classes I took in college did not teach me anything about what being an engineer was like. I only found out what being an engineer was like by working as an intern around engineers in an engineering department at a company.

I'm not against education. I'm all for it. However, it is foolish to pay more for something than it is worth. It is also foolish to pay for something that you will unlikely use. You may say, "You never know what you might learn in college that you might use some day." Well, there are lots of things in a grocery store that I could buy because "You never know when you might be able to use it." Instead of buying something there's a small I might possibly use (rice cakes comes to mind), I buy eggs and milk. So, how about buying courses in college that you KNOW you will use? That seems to me like a much better purchase. Or if you choose a career that is not required or advanced by having a college degree, then you don't need a college degree. College would only be teaching you hobbies, not a career.

Obed
 
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   / For the college folks #35  
X2 Fredd. Luckily, IBM paid for my masters. So you come out with a sheep skin in history or medieval art and then what? Well you could become a bank teller and in 15 years or so work your way up to branch manager, make maybe 50 80 k/yr. open a fast food place in a good spot and clear 50 80 k/wk. CASH!!! A good vegetable stand at a farmers market makes 70-120 k/ mo. CASH!!!!

I have high school friends that barely made it out of school that retired at 55 and never looked back. :drool:
 
   / For the college folks #37  
By far, the most valuable classes I took for my engineering degree were English. They were valuable, not because I enjoyed them or because they exposed me to things I would not otherwise have experienced, but because they taught me useful communication skills that I could apply to my career. The English classes have helped put food on the table my entire adult life.
Interestingly, I was told (by an english professor who's brother works for the NY State Police) that the NYSP (NY State Police) would prefer that their recruits have an English degree not a law enforcement degree. Why? Because they prefer to start with officers who can communicate well and then teach them how to do things the NYSP way. They say that it is easier to train someone who can communicate to be state trooper than to retrain someone to do things their way AND train them to communicate well.

If you want to learn a hobby (poetry, badminton, bowling, art history, etc.) then by all means do so and have fun. But don't spend $80K to learn a hobby unless you have more cash (not loans) than you know what to do with. Nobody would consider it smart to pay $200K for a house that is only worth $100K. But we do the exact same thing with college degrees and nobody thinks a thing about it. We have gone over the edge expecting people to spend $80K to get an undergraduate degree in psychology and then another $60K for a masters in counseling so the graduate can make $40K/year as a social worker. Go figure. Really. Go figure.
I agree 100%. Another interesting factoid, NYS wants library directors to have a MLS (Masters in Library Systems) for jobs at libraries that often pay less than 40k/year.

Aaron Z
 
   / For the college folks #38  
By far, the most valuable classes I took for my engineering degree were English. They were valuable, not because I enjoyed them or because they exposed me to things I would not otherwise have experienced, but because they taught me useful communication skills that I could apply to my career.

Absolutely, if you're talking about English composition, and I suppose English literature helps to some degree, but I'm not at all sure that things such as Shakespeare and/or poetry help much. I think I was fortunate in having very good English teachers in school, especially the last two years of high school. Mrs. Skaggs was a fantastic teacher. I went to college one semester right out of high school. At that time, all first year freshman had to report to a particular auditorium at a particular time and we had no idea why. We were seated at tables and each given 2 sheets of paper and a pencil. The instructor then wrote 4 titles on a blackboard and told us to pick one and write 2 pages about it. We then learned that was to decide whether we went into English 131A (remedial English) or 131B (English literature). I was sorry to learn I was in 131B.:D

Interestingly, I was told (by an english professor who's brother works for the NY State Police) that the NYSP (NY State Police) would prefer that their recruits have an English degree not a law enforcement degree. Why? Because they prefer to start with officers who can communicate well and then teach them how to do things the NYSP way. They say that it is easier to train someone who can communicate to be state trooper than to retrain someone to do things their way AND train them to communicate well.

That's probably true of any large department. When I was promoted to the rank of lieutenant, I was sent to the 12 week Southwestern Police Academy at SMU. It was produced by the Southwestern Legal Foundation. Dr. Weiss taught something they called "Police Report Writing". He was another great common sense professor and taught in other law enforcement venues as well. He believed (and I agree) that officers should try to write in The Reader's Digest style; i.e., ninth grade level, correct English composition, but relatively short sentences, using common words, not big words to impress anyone with your education, and easy for anyone to read and understand.

And would you believe I had one college English professor who asked ME to consider being an English major.:shocked: I made good grades in English but hated English literature.
 
   / For the college folks #39  
Look at the curriculum of MIT or Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute (RPI) and see if you have basket weaving.
You get what you pay for. What do you want basket weaving or differential calculus, it's your choice, don't blame the institution. Do we have to take courses we may not love? Sure. But I tell the kids I tutor, "look, school is like life, your problems don't end when school is over. Learn how to resolve problems in school and it will help you resolve the problems in your life. You'll do tons of things in your life you don't want to do and the unreasonable professor will someday be the unreasonable boss."

Those of you knocking college are looking at the isolated case. There is always someone trying to beat the system, why should it be any different in college but what do you want to talk about, human nature or an education?

You never lose by getting an education. Is it expensive today? You bet, it's a travesty but you have to take the good with the bad just like the rest of life.

Rob
 
   / For the college folks #40  
Those of you knocking college are looking at the isolated case.

Rob, I don't think anyone is "knocking college" but as you said "you have to take the good with the bad" so some of us have mentioned some of what we consider the bad (personal opinions), just as we sometimes talk about things we don't like about some of our tractors; say for instance, the quarter inching valve.:laughing:
 

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