Ford 1600 adding a loader questions...

[adamg]

I've got an old Ford 1600, and I found one of those cheap chinese loaders to put on it. After some research, I have determined that the loader I bought has an open spool power beyond single stick control valve, and I've figured out which is the high pressure inlet from pump, which is the power beyond outlet, and which is the return to tank based on the T and P labels on the valve body.

My question is more for the Ford 1600 itself. After some searching, I found and purchased the adapter block that replaces the top cover of the 3 point control valve assembly that is supposed to permit additional hydraulics to be added. I can't figure out two things:

1. Which of the two ports on it is the high pressure outlet that should go into the loader, and which is the return inlet.

2. Is this adapter block before the 3 point control valve in series, or is it after.. i.e. is the 3 point control valve working as a "power beyond" source and is first in series, and anything on the adapter is second, or is the adapter outlet first in series.

This is important both for the functioning of the loader and the 3 point control if used at the same time under load, and also for which outlets I need to run from the 3 point control value adapter block to the loader and back.

The pressure line from the pump on a 1600 comes into the bottom of the block, and the low pressure return to the tank next to the top of the block, if that has any significance to the adapter block being on top of the block. I also don't see any other low pressure return option to the hydraulic tank.

This has me guessing that the 3point control is first in series, and that whatever is fed off the adapter is then second in series, and I would not require the power beyond outlet from the loader control and I could just plug it.

Can anyone help me resolve this? I'll buy a pressure gauge if necessary to test, if someone can give me some advice on how to troubleshoot the various ports. THanks!

 

[J_J]

After installing the valve, connect some hoses and place in a bucket and then start engine to see which hose has flow.

Usually the 3pt is the last valve in a tractor hyd system..

You could put a hyd gage there and test for pressure.

Show us some pictures.

Does it look anything like this?

 

[adamg]

Well, here's the only pic I can find that I have online already: This is the 3 point control from directly above. The tube towards the top is the return to the tank, the inlet tube is underneath. The cap with the 3 bolts on top we are looking straight down on has to be removed and is replaced by an adapter block with two hydraulic ports on it, not pictured here because I didn't want to install it yet without a plan of how to move forward. You can see the speed control knob at the bottom of the picture, and the entension out to the control lever to the left of that.

 

[J_J]

This is how it might work.

The pump is pumping fluid to the bottom of the 3pt assembly, and the top plate is redirecting the fluid to the 3pt.

When you remove the cap and replace it with an adapter, the fluid now flows through the valve and then into the 3pt.

So with the loader valve in neutral, the pump flow is flowing through the loader valve to 3pt and then to tank.

You can only us both valves at the same time if you only use about half lever on the loader. If the loader uses all the fluid, there will be no fluid to the 3pt, but that is only for a short while.

The adapter may be marked, but if not, you can bump the engine and cause the pump to run briefly and fluid will flow trough the OUT port to loader.

You could also install a gage in the ports and check for pressure as in the pic above.

 

[adamg]

THanks, yeah I thought about just hitting the starter without any diesel feed, and looking to see which port some fluid surges out of.

I think that's a fair assumption that the valve adapter is set up to power the 3 point last. My only real problem now is that there's no ready made tank access point for the loader valve, but maybe I can tap into the return line at some point, or worst case, modify the fill cap with a hose inlet.

Then I need to get an oil that works in both the tractor and loader, and figure out the proper bleeding process to get all the air out. I'm near an amsoil dealer and they have some pretty interesting universal diesel tractor synthetic hydraulic oil.

 

[J_J]

The air will self purge as you use the loader.

You might want to find the spec relief pressure and use that to set up the loader valve.

 

[adamg]

The air will self purge as you use the loader.

You might want to find the spec relief pressure and use that to set up the loader valve.

Update. I found all the adapters and hoses I believe I need to hook up the loader to the tractor, except one thing:

THe loader valvel appears to be set up for power beyond. It has a pressure inlet marked P for pump, and it has two outlets. One is unmarked, and I would assume it is the high pressure power beyond that would go back to the inlet side of the adapter block on the 3 point.

The other is marked T, which I would assume is the low pressure return to tank. Problem is, there is no inlet in the tank except for the fill cap and the return line from the 3 point to the tank.

The question is, if they set the tractor up with a permanent return line from the 3 point to the tank, and didn't give any option for a second hydraulic device to return to the tank, how am I supposed to return the fluid from the control valve to the tank when the valve is in neutral? Am I going to have to drill and tap a return line, or put a T in the existing return line to the tank?

Also, this concerns me because the 1600 can accomodate a loader, but how does a 770 loader, for example, return low pressure flow to the tank if its valve is first in series if the 1600 doesn't have another inlet option to the tank? If they never set up another low pressure return option to the tank, it suggests that perhaps my first theory was wrong, and the 3 point is first in series, and it has a low pressure return, and it can operate power beyond, and it receives a return flow and then sends it back low pressure from the loader.

I have NO way to test this alternative flow, and the reference in the service manual is thin, at best. There is some simplified information about the 3 point hydraulic valve flow, but it doesn't show the adapter option. I'd give about anything to see the setup of a ford 1000 or 1600 tractor that has a loader installed, so I can maybe work out the flow and return options. I'd especially like to see what goes in and out of their control valve...whether it has 2 return lines or just one.

Please help!

 

[J_J]

You can tee into any return line, or run the OUT/return hose to the filler cap to tank.

Each valve will have a OUT/return port. Some valves may have two IN ports and two OUT ports.

You can probably test hyd flow with out a gage by opening a port and bump the starter with fuel off.

 

[adamg]

OK, been a while, but I finally got some work done. I bought a second hydraulic reservoir cap and modified it with a grinder, drill, some JB weld and a fitting so it can be a return inlet for the hydraulic tank. I put on the adapter block, hit the starter for a sec, determined the outflow on it, and ran it into what appeared to be the inlet for the loader valve, and then out to the tank and out of a third outlet that appeared to be power beyond back to the in side of the adapter block.

The Pump inlet and Tank outlet appeared to be clearly labeled on the loader valve with a P and T. I assumed the third valve with a fitting that the previous owner had fitted out was the outlet for the power beyond.

Well, after getting it all set up, I started the tractor, and no leaks. The loader worked apparently just fine. Both sets of cylinders seemed to work as they should. I didn't notice anything odd from either hydraulic valve. What I did notice that was odd was that the three point valve now only works at all when the loader valve is being operated. If the loader is in neutral, the 3 point is unresponsive. If I engage the loader valve, then I can also operate the three point, but as soon as I let off the loader valve, the 3 point valve stops.

I know nothing about the loader valve other than it is a single stick control. I don't know if it is open or closed or whatever you call it. I am pretty sure the way the pump and tank inlet and outlet symbols are cast into the valve body, that I didn't reverse the tank outlet and the power beyond, though someone did tell me this is a potentially damaging possibility, and that a relief valve is preventing overpressure.

Anyone have any idea what I am missing? I'd sure like to be able to use the loader and 3 point independently of eachother, and be sure I am not running it in a way that could damage something.

 

[J_J]

Tractordata does not say whether your hyd system is open or closed center, but here is some tractor data.


Hydraulics:
Capacity: 2.6 gal [9.8 L]
Pressure: 1421 psi [98.0 bar]
Total flow: 4.2 gpm [15.9 lpm]

If your system is open center, the pump flow should go to the loader, from the loader PB back to the 3pt, and the OUT/return to tank.

It does sound like you reversed the lines.

When the pump is turning, the flow goes through the loader valve and with PB, passes from the PB to the next valve.

Now if you put the OUT hose from the loader into the 3pt, it will only have fluid when you are using the loader, and the PB flow dumps into the tank.

Do you know which port is the input to the 3pt? If so, run the hose from the PB adapter to the 3pt IN port.