Ford 1700, any help?

[JC-jetro]

A bit more info John,

Below you see the pic of the tester I bought. I bought it 25 years ago when I was a college kid. It never failed me once. I overhauled more than 10-15 alternators mainly GM for myself, friends and family and it never once failed me. A diode trio for GM was less than $4 and it took 45 minutes to do with a toothpick as one of the major tools used. I ended up replacing some solid state regulator but 8 out of 10 diode was the faulty component. I do not know if rectifier diode is available for your Hitachi alternator but I'm sure replacement will not be cheap. At this point,I'm not completely sure if you identified source of your problem yet. The good thing about a tester is, you can test the system in 2 minutes without any component disassembly. I'm going to my place to pick up some tomatoes tomorrow, I'll check charging output on my 1700 for curiosity sake.

JC,

ps. By the way On my previous post I said output terminal is "B" based on repair manual but noticed on my Hitachi alternator it is marked "A"... Just FYI

 

[JB4310]

A bit more info John,
I do not know if rectifier diode is available for your Hitachi alternator but I'm sure replacement will not be cheap. At this point,I'm not completely sure if you identified source of your problem yet.

$600.00 +, yup, that's what a new alternator costs from NH, regulator is $60.00, got the prices today, I'm going to bring it to an electric motor repair guy that has a shop close to me on Tuesday, just gonna drive the thing there so he can see all components connected together.
I don't have a load tester, and my multi meter only goes up to 10 amps DC so I'm kinda throwing in the towel for now, the dealer told me the alternators can be serviced and recommended this guy.
Been busy the last 2 days so I didn't have time to fool around with it, plus I really can't go much further myself, another clue though is the regulator is warm to the touch after sitting over night with key off, I know that means a current draw so when I disconnect the POS battery cable to look for the tell tale arc I can hear one of the regulator coils clicking open and shut when I touch and remove the cable to the post, I know that's not right but don't know if that means the regulator is bad or alternator or both or something else.
I took the regulator out so it would not draw the battery down and the tractor still starts and everything electric ie, horn, lights work, I know the battery is not getting charged but at least I can move it or use it for now till I get this ironed out, the odd thing is the battery warning light is still not on and I know the bulb is good. also I can't figure out these fuses, like I mentioned before they don't seem to do any thing, with the fuses out everything still works???
That's a nice tester, I've not seen that before, sounds like it's saved you a lot of money over the years.
Finally, I changed the oil (used 15-40 OK?) in the injector pump, the level was low and oil was very thick and dirty, a little tricky to refill though, check out the picture, drilled an 1/8" hole in the tip of a scalpicin bottle, took about 2-1/2 bottles to reach level, a little less than 4 OZ's I think,
I should know more on Tuesday, have a nice Labor day weekend, JB,

 

[JC-jetro]

$600.00 +, yup, that's what a new alternator costs from NH, regulator is $60.00, got the prices today, I'm going to bring it to an electric motor repair guy that has a shop close to me on Tuesday, just gonna drive the thing there so he can see all components connected together.
I don't have a load tester, and my multi meter only goes up to 10 amps DC so I'm kinda throwing in the towel for now, the dealer told me the alternators can be serviced and recommended this guy.
B JB,

John,

It's okay to have someone else look at it. With the key off I just don't understand why a contactor need to be energized. There may be a short involved somewhere that is rubbing the juice from the battery since your alternator light did not come on. If the guy verifies the problem to be with the diode, then my suggestion is that you do the work yourself as it is not difficult to split an alternator, replacing the diode, put the brushes in and put to halves together. it does not take any special tools other than a set of nut drivers or 1/4" socket set. just a toothpick or aper clips to keep brushes' spring compressed. if you just take your time , mark things and take some photos as you disassemble the unit the assembly is exact reverse. Load test I think may be a bit of overkill, forget the amp for now if your voltage is outside the range as indicated on my meter picture previously, I would take chance on just putting a regulator in myself and give it a try. I'll also check non OEM (original equipment manufacturer) regulator... you may be able to find it cheaper. It a good thing that you changed..that injector pump is even pricier than alternator. One thing though ... from the pic it appears you filled it from overflow hole. Althogh it should equally work well you should have done it by removing a cap on top of the injector as marked in the pic below. you have a cap on top, a level indicator hole and a drain hole. you first open the breather cap, then open drain screw to dump the bad oil. To fill you close the drain hole followed by opening of the level hole and filling from the top using a small funnel till oil start leaking out of the middle or level hole. you have not done any harm but did not need a squeeze bottle. By the way your problem is not a show stopper now specially if you do not need to work in dark.. bad part of it is that you need to have charging vehicle and jumper cable at the ready.

You have a good labor day holiday too. wife and I are going to a wedding and plan to have a bit of R&R.

Jc,

good

 

[JB4310]

"It a good thing that you changed..that injector pump is even pricier than alternator. One thing though ... from the pic it appears you filled it from overflow hole. Althogh it should equally work well you should have done it by removing a cap on top of the injector as marked in the pic below. you have a cap on top, a level indicator hole and a drain hole. you first open the breather cap, then open drain screw to dump the bad oil. To fill you close the drain hole followed by opening of the level hole and filling from the top using a small funnel till oil start leaking out of the middle or level hole. you have not done any harm but did not need a squeeze bottle."

JC
I thought there should be an easier way, my filler looks a little different than the picture in your manual as mine seems to have a breather cap on it.
Regarding the Alternator, I brought it to a company that rebuilds them, they told me the capacitor was fried, I think it was capacitor? they didn't mention diode though, they also said it needed brushes, bearings and rotor work?, anyway they quoted me $160.00, not to bad compared to $600.00 for new. It was going to be done by 5M today but they were having trouble pulling the old bearing out and it wont be till tomorrow.
They said that condition with the capacitor could have caused the regulator to close and draw current but they were not sure, I'm crossing my fingers, I'll ask them if they can test regulator to.
Can you post the electrical schematic? In case I have to track down a short somewhere. Thanks, JB, BTW we were at a wedding on Saturday to.

 

[JC-jetro]

"
JC
I thought there should be an easier way, my filler looks a little different than the picture in your manual as mine seems to have a breather cap on it.
Regarding the Alternator, I brought it to a company that rebuilds them, they told me the capacitor was fried, I think it was capacitor? they didn't mention diode though, they also said it needed brushes, bearings and rotor work?, anyway they quoted me $160.00, not to bad compared to $600.00 for new. It was going to be done by 5M today but they were having trouble pulling the old bearing out and it wont be till tomorrow.
They said that condition with the capacitor could have caused the regulator to close and draw current but they were not sure, I'm crossing my fingers, I'll ask them if they can test regulator to.
Can you post the electrical schematic? In case I have to track down a short somewhere. Thanks, JB, BTW we were at a wedding on Saturday to.

Well John, I'm in an official boon doggle away from home but do have my trusty ole laptop with me ... so here we go.

1)I do have the breather cap on mine as well, there is a hex cap right below the breather cap.. get your small crescent wrench and open the cap and breather all at the same time. Breather stays with the cap and use a little funnel to fill.

2) Capacitor was fried? I think that's a bunch of phooey IMHO. I have not seen a capacitor in the alternator diagram below.I have never seen a condenser in any alternator that I overhauled. Not saying that I know all manufactured models but capacitor is storage device for very quick energy dissipation, same as a balloon full of air... when you pop it... it discharges the stored energy very quickly. I wondered if they're giving you the "business" or they call the rectifier diode a capacitor I can see the brushes are worn out needing replacement, I can see bad bearing, but bad bearing should have given you signs when you rotate the alternator pulley. It should grind or bind to some extent. Did you turn the pulley by hand? Then "Rotor work"!! what are we talking about? rotor does not have any serviceable part. Rotor shaft can be worn out with the bad bearing and only can be replaced. Shaft damage can hardly be repaired. Now stator winding can be more of problem area than the rotor. Rotor is a shaft , piece of metal core to induce electricity in the winding Rotor does not have any electrical components.

3) on diode testing : you can use a test light connected to the two ends of the diode, the light should come on one way and not by reversing the polarity. same way, you can use an ohm meter and it should be open (zero resistance) one way and high resistance(closed) the other way. Both ways closed or open is the sign of diode damage.

4) $160 is better than $ 600 provided they are "up and up" with their claim. I'd rattle their cage a bit by asking some questions.

JC,


P.S by the way I checked voltage output on mine last Sunday and it was 14.5 volts measured at the battery posts.


Alternator parts:



F 1700 wiring diagram:

 

[sandman2234]

I sure hope you checked the alternater belt to make sure it isn't loose and slipping before going thru all that trouble. The mechanic could have tightened the belt and just blamed it on a capacitor...
David from jax

 

[JC-jetro]

I sure hope you checked the alternater belt to make sure it isn't loose and slipping before going thru all that trouble. The mechanic could have tightened the belt and just blamed it on a capacitor...
David from jax

I very seriously doubt existence of any capacitor in that Toshiba alternator. They might have the names confused, don't know what they are talking about or I'm mistaken. anybody can chime in on the capacitor?

JC,

 

[sandman2234]

I didn't mean to imply that there is a capacitor, just wanted to make sure that he had checked the belt tension before tearing into the alternator. If the mechanic tightened up the belt and wanted to make a little extra money, he could blame it on something internal and not be questioned. If he said he just tightened the belt, charging that much would be met with resistance. If he really did tear into the alternator, he would have known the correct name of the part he replaced.
A loose belt is just another thing to check for people with charging problems before deciding the alternator has something wrong with it.
David from jax

 

[Soundguy]

I very seriously doubt existence of any capacitor in that Toshiba alternator. They might have the names confused, don't know what they are talking about or I'm mistaken. anybody can chime in on the capacitor?

JC,

I tend to agree.. I fthere is a cap.. I'd expect to see it as a filtering device.. nothing more.

If it was a leaky cap.. it would either be a large drain.. or a slow drain. a slow drain would likely not touch the battery for weeks. A large drain would eventually degrade the cap till it shorted.. and then it would likely QUICKLY open.. and then not be an issue any more.

I think I'd ask for the old cap back.. and for the schematic they refered to to fix it. I'm especially interested in why they weren't 100% sure.. Electronics are pretty decisive when it comes to components. they are either in tolerance, out of tolerance.. or bad.. ( intermittant is bad )

Soundguy

 

[JB4310]

NO no no, MY fault, no capacitor it was the rectifier they said was fried, along with bad brushes and bearings, and something to do with the rotor I think. The bearings are the only thing that might not have been bad, cause to me it seemed tight with no noticeable play, you could hear some grinding when you spin it but I thought that was the brushes.
Anyway everything appears to be A-OK now, it was a good sign when the battery idiot light came on for test when I turned the key, which it never did before, broke out the digi meter for a more accurate reading, got 14.1 volts at 900 RPM's and 14.7 at 2500 RPM's at the battery, the guy said it should not be over 14.2 volts or I may need a regulator but he didn't say at what RPM so I'm gonna run it for now.
They charged me an extra $20.00 for what I don't know but I'm not complaining since they did jump on it right away, I wasn't completely honest with them when I told them I was broke down in the field. I thought they were giving me a new one as it was so clean when I picked it up today, even painted the pulley, they said they put it in the tank, the case looks brand new.
They called it a Hitachi alternator and a Datsun type regulator, if that means anything.

Sandman, I did have a loose belt and replaced it but that was not the problem.

JC, Thanks again for all the help, I am gonna have to sell this thing eventually but I'm gonna keep it through the hay ride season for the kids, it's just not the same feeling with my John Deere with the shiny plastic hood and Electronic over Hydraulic tranny.

A pic of the alternator