Ford 1700 Hydraulic Pump

[JC-jetro]

Well, i put a new (used) pump on my 1700 and at least it will pick my heavy butt. I put a pressure gauge on where you said and can get about 1200 psi. I feel that I have leakage through my relief valve at this point. I have taken it apart and it seems to be pretty worn. Suggestions on getting my pressure up (and don't say saw palmetto). Thanks

Howdy,

well, I ain't around your part and " saw Palmetto" went right over my head
Now about the question, how can yo tell it's worn? and how does it look? do you have a pic? I don't think anything can go wrong with spring other than losing stiffness and the remedy is tighten it a bit. The valve itself is conical shape and the seat will conform to the shape of the valve. I would inspect the valve and the seat and would use emery cloth and something and shiny up the valve and the seat. would not change the seat angle. Then I put the p-gage on start the tractor and test out the pressure. You get max pressure at engine rated rpm and not at lower rpm. At what RPM did you get 1200 psi. There is a cap at the end of relief that you can take out and there is an adjustment, CW you add pressure because you stiffen out the spring. CCW you do the opposite and take stiffness away hence less pressure. Do you anything else plumbed up between the pump discharge and the pressure relief?

JC<

 

[hgd1956]

The spring seems to have very little resistant when screwing the adjustment screw CW. I have screwed the thing all the way in with no difference in pressure. Of course I did get the 1200 psi with the RPM at 540 pto speed. I take a photo the next time I work on the little rascal. Thanks

P.S. Saw Palmetto is given as a supplement treatment for prostate problems to help the flow and pressure. It was a joke.

 

[JC-jetro]

The spring seems to have very little resistant when screwing the adjustment screw CW. I have screwed the thing all the way in with no difference in pressure. Of course I did get the 1200 psi with the RPM at 540 pto speed. I take a photo the next time I work on the little rascal. Thanks

P.S. Saw Palmetto is given as a supplement treatment for prostate problems to help the flow and pressure. It was a joke.

On some tractors they have the spring and not an adjustment bolt. The way it's done is by adding a shim to compress the spring more. The shim can be a few washer with right OD to fit the hole the housing. I'm afraid that the seat and the valve might be so worn out that with the full adjustment still not enough to hold. How did the tips of the spring look like, any possibility if the spring broke at some place?

JC,

Thanks for the Google, I did a quick search on Palmetto but then thoughts it might have an inside regional meaning as well.

 

[old1500]

On some diagrams, these washers JC is talking about are called a "clutch" and I have seen them listed as shims. Anyway....I got one of the buggers without the adjustment and when I pulled mine apart I found a thin spring-washer sandwiched between two thicker washers. The diagrams that I have seen show two washers (clutch) but mine had three...if you count the thin spring washer. Anyway...neither adding or subtracting helped my problem, which was a weak chattering lift. BUT...I have gotten to the bottom of my problem but seek some advice on how I may need to proceed. I had just cleaned the filter screen on my pump some 15-20 hours (run-time) ago and the lift worked perfectly. All of a sudden, I developed this poor/chattering lift problem. I removed my filter screen after trying to adjust the control vale failed and found it clogged "again". It's not metallic junk and looks more like gasket material...as in paper particles. I had also changed my hydro fluid when I cleaned the filter the first time, so I had fresh fluid in there.

My question is....should I consider draining the fluid out again and "flushing" the hydro system with more fluid or something else. I hate to have to run another 5-gallons of new expensive fluids through this thing to clean it out. OR...simply continue to clean the filter screen ever 15-20 hours until I get all this junk out of there???

Hey JC....you constantly preach to us about getting a pressure gauge. I promise that I have one ordered and will obey your command. (LOL).

 

[JC-jetro]

O

Hey JC....you constantly preach to us about getting a pressure gauge. I promise that I have one ordered and will obey your command. (LOL).

Howdy again Old

It seems it is you and I who are talking But any who, let's see what I have to say.

Fiistly, I'm glad that you are heeding my advice and buying a P Gage so you can talk apples vs apples. Secondly, What is this "hydro" you're talking about? You don't have a Hydrostatic transmission !! do ya? Tractor data does not indicate a hydrostatic tranny option, although they are not 100% right every time.

Now about the gunk in the diffy. I'm sure by now you realize I'm just a bit different But usually I have some game plan. The suction happens in the rear diffy, flow in the pipe is fast both in suction and discharge (high velocity) but when all hyd oil is returned to the diffy suddenly it slows down due to size of the vessel.. not a pipe anymore. This causes area of very low velocity flow that helps with settling of all the contaminant in the oil. As a result the floor of diffy is covered with gunk. On my tractor in 25 years no one changed the hyd oil and surprisingly dip stick showed clean oil and in reality all the stuff was collected on the screen and floor of diffy. When I took the drain plug off from the bottom of diffy nothing came out. With the help of a piece of bailing wire I removed a glob of gunk out of the bottom for it to start flowing. When I took the the screen out then I devised me a contraption to vacum the bottom of diffy since I did not want to dirty my shop vac. I made a collection vacuum container. By now, You relaize I'm making it up as I go. I have pics below that are self explanatory. I put a garden hose on the left tube and put my shop vac on the right connection that is from one of my busted pop up lawn sprinkler. I then turned the shop vac on, stuck the garden hose in to the diffy and pumped out all it's guts. I tell you that little white bucket was full off snut like material, nice and thick. I did it after I totally drained the system. I would not dump the oil, I run it thru some sieve and collect and discard the junk. That oil is still plenty good.


JC,

 

[old1500]

JC...I don't mind us talking to each other by ourselves if that's okay with you.

What I meant by "hydro" was just a short term I dreamed up to mean hydraulic fluid. I do not have a hydrostatic tranny, except in my lawn mower.

I will try to hit all your points. First thing is that is a great idea to suction the diffy. Works just like a brake bleeding system...only larger and home-made. I sit around the house dreaming-up stuff to make and this invention of yours is right up my alley. I hope you have not applied for a patent, because I plan to copy it.

It is comforting to know that somebody did not use my diffy case as a paper-shredder and it is common to have all the gunk down in the bottom. I had a similar experience with an older Ford I once had and had to jab a screwdriver up in the drain-hole to make the crap flow out. I was thinking that I would eventually get it all cleaned out by cleaning the filter now and then, but draining and cleaning is probably a better idea.

I am also glad to hear that the fluid can be strained and re-used...so I don't lose all of it in the process. I was going to suggest that I do that, but did not want you guys throwing stuff at me for being a tight-wad.

This lift does not chatter a twit and works perfectly....until the filter clogged. I was stumbling around looking for other problems, because I knew I had just cleaned that filter some 20-hours earlier. This tractor had sat-up for a long time also, so I am sure I have used it more in the last 2-months than it was used in the last 10-years and am "breaking-up" all the gook down in the bottom of the diffy and it's finding it's way to the pump input line.

I am a cheap-skate...or maybe I need to say frugal...so I ordered a rather inexpensive gauge 0-6000 so if it only works for a while, or allows me to set the correct pressure, it will have paid for itself. $10...shipping and all.

I'll let you know how it works here in a few days.

 

[JC-jetro]

Cool as they say necessity is the mother of inventions. Now, one more simpler one time use vacuum collection system is to use a used quart bottle of oil, take the cap off, shove a garden hose all the way in there, use duct tape and seal the hose. Then put a flat nozzle on your the shop vac, make a slit on the side of the bottle toward the top, tape the nozzle if you want a good seal(not entirely necessary). Shove the end of garden hose back in the diffy and turn the shop vac on. Does the same for one time use bottle.

JC,

PS. Medical vacuum work about the same and design been there for a long time. As long as you share the royalty with me.. I'll be okay.

 

[old1500]

JC....I installed my "dirt cheap" pressure gauge and need to ask what to expect. In my feeble mind....I do not know where this gauge is in the hydraulic circuit, but I installed it in the same port as yours is.

When should I expect pressure....like under load only, or all the time, or will the pressure vary depending on the 3PH load? Mine has never gone above around 600 (spike only) when I take the empty lift up and stays down there pretty close to 100 or so when the lift is about half way and stabilized.

 

[JC-jetro]

JC....I installed my "dirt cheap" pressure gauge and need to ask what to expect. In my feeble mind....I do not know where this gauge is in the hydraulic circuit, but I installed it in the same port as yours is.

When should I expect pressure....like under load only, or all the time, or will the pressure vary depending on the 3PH load? Mine has never gone above around 600 (spike only) when I take the empty lift up and stays down there pretty close to 100 or so when the lift is about half way and stabilized.

Hey old,

Glad you got our P gauge. For 1700 the rated pressure at 2500 rpm (gets pto rpm of 540) is 2133 psi or just say 2100 psi. Mine is just about 50 psi less of that and since I can lift my heaviest implement without any issues did not try to increase it.

-The pump flow is proportional to engine rpm and the pressure increase as rpm increases. The relief pressure valve maintain the max pressure by bypassing excess. If the pump is dead headed the pressure increase without stop till something breaks. Gear pump don't have the ability to dead head and spin for a short period like centrifugal pump.

-You should expect to read around 2000 psi under operating rpm with or without an implement. Depending on how tired your pump is you might have problems getting the pressure lifting a heavy equipment.

-with load or without load on the hitch as you raise the lift arm when it gets to final top position the relief mechanism should chatter and relive and that should be around 2133 psi give or take some.

-if relief pressure is let say 1800 psi then you can stiffen the spring in relief or adding shims to increase relief pressure, higher the relief and more you can pick up with your 3-point. You do not want to increase your relief to much higher pressure thinking your increasing your lift capacity. That might damage other components of your system including your pump. not a good thing.

-when the engine is off and you have something hanging from your 3 point then the pressure that you would read is the weight of your lift arm and implement that pushes or compresses the hyd oil in the cylinder. That is purely a function of the weight hanging and it can be anywhere as far as psi.

-with engine off as you lower the implement and you'll notice pressure dropping till you hit the ground and it read close to zero. If you keep the tractor under the sun the expansion of oil can increase the pressure with no load just due to expansion of the hys oil.

-where you have you gauge is downstream of relief and spool valve and just before the lift cylinder so it is representative of cylinder pressure.

I had a thread about it and add it below for your reading enjoyment

JC,



http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/new-holland-owning-operating/130597-adjust-not-adjust.html

 

[andreww]

So far so good... Not bad aye. make sure to change pump input shaft seal as well. It is about $10 if I remember it right. That might allow air to be sucked in causing priming loss. On mine actually the shaft seal was the culprit. As long as the pump is not running dry there still be hope. make sure to orient the seal inside right as they will cause a bypass flow to keep the bushing and shaft lubricated. One way that you can check the flow in a cleaner manner and also checking your spool valve flow is directed to hose attached where I have a P. gauge in the pic below on lift piston cylinder head. Use a bucket to capture the fluid. Lift arm up and flow, lift arm down all the way no flow. I'm optimistic you'll fix it. Report back with your progress.

JC,


Edit;Once you get the pump working like it should and no 3 points, then you still might need to change the lift seal. even at reduced pump flow it the lift should still work but slow and not robust. Seal change was also on my posting and is a simple task. Spool valve operation is important as you can easily check it like how I suggested above.

I am having similar problems with 3 pt and FEL. Have changed fluid and cleaned filter and my gauge can only get up to about 800 psi. I did put a new lift cylinder piston seal with no help. I noticed yesterday when working on it that my hyd. oil in foaming with I pull the dipstick. Any ideas that might be common to my problems?