Ford 6.4L diesel replacement!

[RobJ]

That explains the volvo but how does it explain the larger premums for liability on my little old light tin can tracker versus the big 2500 hd silverado. I can pretty much guarantee the 6000 pounds of silverado will do a lot more damage to another vehicle in a wreck compared to what the 1500 pounds of tracker can do. Actually the tracker liability is more than my porsche. So let me some that up. a vehicle which will do about 90mph top end and weighs about 1500 pounds.Cost more money for liability insurance than a vehicle that will do about 160mph top end or a vehicle that weighs 6000 pounds. I am beyond trying to reason what insurance companies base their rates upon.

Maybe it's because the 4 door tracker actually weighs 2400#...

I don't know all the differences but when talking about liability insurance only (NOT including un/under insured drivers or Collision), age still is a factor. We just broke my 16 yo daughter to a separate policy, liabilty only, 1998 mustang..it's a little cheaper than my son's 1997 mustang who is 19.

Who knows??

 

[Dargo]

True. Along the same line (changes in engines) I had proprietary information on specific engine breakdowns and claims that I consulted before buying my last pickup. Before I moved from a tried and true 12 valve 5.9 Cummins, I looked over a considerable amount of actuarial data to establish what year engine was reliable in the brand of truck I preferred to buy this time. Still, I was curious as to people's feeling towards the Power Stroke 6.0 engine. A lot of people were not aware that many changes had been made over the years to the engine. I knew that the Ford 6.0 Power Stroke in the year 2006 had less warranty claims than any other engine in a Ford product. That fact is now readily available to the public in Wikipedia. Wikipedia states "There were many running changes to the engine and in the 2006 year model the 6.0 had the lowest rate of warranty claims across the board for Ford Motor Company when compared to all of Ford's gas and diesel engines."

Still, a lot of people believe it is a "bad engine" and it was replaced by the 6.4 because it could not be made reliable by Ford when if fact quite the contrary is true. As with many engines, new EPA regulations are causing running changes to be made to engines; including new engines. I laugh when people claim that Dodge moved to a Cummins 6.7 because the 5.9 had problems and couldn't put out power. If anyone ever goes to diesel drag races or truck pulls, it's known by most people there that the Cummins 5.9 will take more torque than either the Ford or GM engine. If you pass 1000 ft. lbs. of torque with the GM or Ford engines by much you run a huge risk of the block coming apart if you don't girdle the block. I ran a 5.9 Cummins for over 7 years that produced over 1000 ft. lbs. of torque with zero issues.

This brings me to the fact that the 6.4 Ford diesel isn't being replaced because it is a "bad engine". Maybe you could call it poor planning or foresight on Ford's part, but not an inability to produce a good diesel engine.

 

[Eagleview]

The point of picture of the con rods was that a long stroke makes torque (FACT). A short stroke makes for high revs and Horsepower up top(FACT) . Even the stock 4.2ltr Ford Turbo Diesel Six cylinder puts out 500nm (369lbft)@2000rpm .You need two more cylinders , another cylinder head , complicated manifolds and exhausts etc to build a V8 to produce the same amount of Torque as the Cummins . How many large truck manufacturers still make V8's ? Theres a reason they are mostly using 6's , TORQUE is what their after not HORSEPOWER . Trucks geared to do 60mph @ 1400-1600 revs . Big Horsepower in cars and pickups is a round about way of increasing Torque . When people drive a big HP vehicle they feel this big kick in the pants when they take off and assume its the HP that's creating this , it's not .......

 

[gemini5362]

Maybe it's because the 4 door tracker actually weighs 2400#...

I don't know all the differences but when talking about liability insurance only (NOT including un/under insured drivers or Collision), age still is a factor. We just broke my 16 yo daughter to a separate policy, liabilty only, 1998 mustang..it's a little cheaper than my son's 1997 mustang who is 19.

Who knows??

Maybe I did not quote the weight for a 4 door tracker because mine is a two door

Actuall I dont know that much about how they figure rates. I know a few things. 1. womens rates with everything equal is cheaper than mens rates. 2. Like I said before they look at credit report. The better your credit rating the cheaper your insurance. When they list cars for liability insurance they have clasifications. I belive those go from something like 1-9 then a-z then aa-zz if I rembmer correctly. If I am wrong I am sure that there is someone on here that knows the correct classifications. The tracker is up somewhere around a v rating if I remember what my insurance agent told me. I am guessing that the reason for that is who drives them. Trackers are a small SUV that gets good gas mileage and for quite a while was popular for younger people in high school and college. They might have a high incidents of wrecks because of that. I am just guessing because I dont really know why they are higher. I just know they are.

 

[WilliamBos]

I agree, I don't like it they can't settle on one design and be able to modify it to meet changing emission standards. The 6.0 did last for 5 years and the 6.4 will be around for at least 3. I was very satisfied with my '04 6.0 and the '08 6.4 I have now puts the 6.0 to shame in performance and smooth operation. I have no doubts that Ford and Navistar will provide parts support for both engines for a long time.

Is the Duramax the exact same engine now that it was when it was introduced? The displacement is the same, but how many components can be swapped from the current year to the first year?

Is the Cummins the exact same engine now (I know its a 6.7 now) as it was when it was introduced?

Not too much is the same, if anything at all.

 

[gemini5362]

Actually, in 2004.5 they introduced the LLY with VVT. Higher performance and lower mpg's.

They also beefed up the block in 2006. The accessories also have changed since 2001. I think 2006 the allison got a 6th gear.


But, you can take a 2008 short block and bolt on heads and all accessories from a 2001. You can swap cranks, pistons, rods and intake manifolds between the two. Obviously, the newer stuff is improved with ongoing engineering.

In 2003 Ford had the 7.3, then the 6.0, the 6.4 and will have the 6.7 in 2009. That's 4 totally different engine designs in 6 model years! You won't find much interchange between any of those 4 engine families, maybe the paint.... Those engine changes are way different than the 221 v8 changing into the 260, the 289, the 302, the way stupid 255, the 5.0L with actual displacement of 4.9l), the 351w, the 5.8l. There is less interchange between those engines of the same family than between the duramax of 2001 and 2008.

Yep you are right the VVT was in the LLY engine I mistakenly though that it came out with the LBZ. Here is a website of the changes made to the LBZ engine
The 2006 Duramax 6600

 

[Builder]

The point of picture of the con rods was that a long stroke makes torque (FACT). A short stroke makes for high revs and Horsepower up top(FACT) . Even the stock 4.2ltr Ford Turbo Diesel Six cylinder puts out 500nm (369lbft)@2000rpm .You need two more cylinders , another cylinder head , complicated manifolds and exhausts etc to build a V8 to produce the same amount of Torque as the Cummins . How many large truck manufacturers still make V8's ? Theres a reason they are mostly using 6's , TORQUE is what their after not HORSEPOWER . Trucks geared to do 60mph @ 1400-1600 revs . Big Horsepower in cars and pickups is a round about way of increasing Torque . When people drive a big HP vehicle they feel this big kick in the pants when they take off and assume its the HP that's creating this , it's not .......

Actually, the biggest reason to make 6 bangers for big trucks is simplicity (reliability) & packaging. Mack's Superliner V-8's and CAT's old 3408 V-8's were torque MONSTERS. Locomotives run a lot of V-8's & V-12's and I can tell you that a loco diesel will run the pants off a truck diesel.

Torque is torque, whether it comes in I-6 or V-8 packaging. If a truck makes 650 ftlbs at 1700rpm as a V-8 and the other makes 650 ftlbs at 1700 rpm as a I-6, then they have the same power output.

I do disagree with your fundamental asessment of how power is made and the relationship of torque & horsepower, but that's a whole 'nother thread.

I actually prefer Cummins 5.9L diesels to the competiton, but more based on simplicity & reliability, so don't make the me the "anti-cummuns" guy.

I can just tell you that they're pretty lame in bigger trucks compared to DT-466's, CAT 3126's, etc. They just don't have the rotating mass to power bigger equipment at higher power ratings. That's why you usually see them running about 210-250 in bigger trucks.

 

[Builder]

Not too much is the same, if anything at all.

There's a lot more similarities between an '01 DMAX and an '08 DMAX compared to the 7.3L, the 6L and the 6.4L diesels.

 

[Builder]

Yeah.

I still don't "get" why they have to ditch entire engine families. They say the 7.3 couldn't meet emissions. But, an engine starts out as a set displacement from the piston going up and down. They can easily change the shape of the piston, the shape of the combustion chamber and the intake path. No big deal. In fact the latest aftermarket 302/351 heads have modern combustion chambers and they make gobs of power with excellent economy. I really don't undestand how it's cheaper to start from scratch than to just bolt on a new set of heads & manifolds.

Probably like everything else, it's driven by politics....

I'd say it's driven by greed and profits. Ford also knows (beyond the pollution mandates on diesels) by continually trotting out a "new & improved" diesel everty couple of years, they'll be able to sell them to all the guys that absolutely have to have the newest & coolest thing.

A year and 1/2 ago, I was drooling over the 6.4L Ford with twin turbos. I thought it would be the best diesel out there. When I read the facts, it was apparent that despite all the new fangled technology and twins, it made less torque down low than the Cummins or DMAX. Torque down low is THE biggest asset of a diesel engine. It also looked like a nightmare to service.

 

[riptides]

That explains the volvo but how does it explain the larger premums for liability on my little old light tin can tracker versus the big 2500 hd silverado. I can pretty much guarantee the 6000 pounds of silverado will do a lot more damage to another vehicle in a wreck compared to what the 1500 pounds of tracker can do. Actually the tracker liability is more than my porsche. So let me some that up. a vehicle which will do about 90mph top end and weighs about 1500 pounds.Cost more money for liability insurance than a vehicle that will do about 160mph top end or a vehicle that weighs 6000 pounds. I am beyond trying to reason what insurance companies base their rates upon.

Heh heh... My F250SD XLT crew cab diesel, jacked up is less than all three of my other vehicles. It is less than my Chevy S-10 2-seat gasser 4 banger. Hah!

Go figure.