Ford Rant

[RayH]

Look at it this way. If your biggest complaint about the truck is the location of a single switch and light bulb your ahead of the game. I don't think I have ever owned a vehicle, come to think of it I don't think I have ever owned anything that I only had one little complaint about. It's usually major problems that seem to never go away. I wish my only problem was a switch location.

Agree 100%.

If thats the biggest complaint, then Ford has done very well. Just be thankful the switches still work. Im not a fan of switches either. I like to reach down and pull the lever into 4X4. Too many house wives are intimidated by the lever so most everything now has the less intimidating switch or button.
The hard steering in 4X4 is not a Ford thing, its a 4X4 thing. I know some people will disagree and say,"my chevy, toyota, dodge, whatever, doesnt do that" if you have a part time 4X4 system in your truck, it will scrub and jerk on hard surfaces, thats just physics.

 

[BillyP]

I posted to this thread earlier but deleted it. Went back and reread the thread.

Anyway, if by chance you got it by way of email, disregard.

 

[N80]

Not picking on you, but think about it: You admit "love" for your previous Japanese vehicles, but even though the Ford has been "flawless" and "done all the things you wanted it to do and done them well", you still cannot "love" that vehicle.

Why is that? Are the Japanese vehicles somehow beyond flawless? Was every switch and placed perfectly, and nothing whatsoever needed a repair?

Excellent points. But surely you know that 'love' is a fickle thing.

First of all, my first three Japanese vehicles were very nearly flawless. The only mechanical failures, and there was one major one, was totally, 100% my fault. (Read : abuse) I won't go into that, suffice it to say that I used to play and play hard in some of these.

But that still doesn't account for the 'love' factor. I think it has a lot more to do with small than anything else. But 'tight' is another word I'd use for these Jap trucks. Everything is tight, from the steering to the handling to the ride to shifting to the fit and finish. I hate being 'protected' from the feel of driving. I want feedback from the road/earth. And then there is the tough factor. My gosh these little trucks were tough....I say were because my last one was a '96. And it has to do with enjoying driving. I used to enjoy driving those vehicles. My Ford is a great truck. I'll remember it as a good tool, but not fun. Not a joy to drive.

You also admit to "expecting the worst" when going in. With that, it is no surprise that you found something not to your liking, is it?

Well, the last vehicle I has before getting my first Jap truck was a 1976 AMC Jeep Cherokee that my Dad bought new in 1976. As a young man I loved it because it was mine and it was a truck. Outside of that it may have been the worst vehicle ever made. Every window knob fell off/broke (you've seen it, vice grips in place of window roller upper). Every window fell off its tracks, including the back window. Kept a pair of forceps handy to fish them up out of the door. Windshield leaked from day one. It ate u-joints and water pumps monthly. The headliner fell out. Radio died almost instantly. Card board glove box last how long? That truck left me stranded in more strange places than I car to remember.

And it was the '70's so I saw similar problems in all my friend's and parent's cars.

Then I finally got a red Nissan King Cab 4x4 and I'd never seen or felt anything like it. Love at first drive. At that moment I made my wife swear to hit me in the head with a bat if I ever tried to buy another American vehicle.

My point is that the American automakers generated a lot of ill will in the 70's and early 80's. A lot. After that sort of experience why would I not have low expectations? Yes a lot of time had gone by but the Japs are still here with great stuff. I finally bought American because they had what I needed and the Japs did not. Chalk one up for USA. (If they had, I'd be driving a Nissan Titan right now....for better or worse...more on that later.)

Don't get me wrong, there is room for improvement at Ford. But that is the very nature of engineering...incremental improvements.

Well you know that does not have any bearing on what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about technology. I'm talking about common sense. The stuff the Japanese understood in the 1980's and that took the Americans 10 years to figure out. The Japanese did not bring any technological breakthroughs to this continent in the 1970's. They brought quality and ergonomics.

 

[N80]

No design considerations there AT all. On numerous basics, gauges, seats, arm rests, cup holders, seat head rests... and on...and on...

So, I know what you mean.

-Mike Z.

Well, just to be fair and balanced, we have a Nissan Murano. It is a really neat vehicle. I like the power. The handling is simply remarkable for an SUV-ish vehicle. The AWD system is spectacular. It is comfortable. Very roomy. And quite remarkably the CVT transmission is still working as advertised! But the ergonomics and interior fit and finish have a lot to be deisred. Buttons, switchs, etc are poorly placed and designed. Many of them, like the wiper system are counter intuitive. The plastic feels cheap. The sun visor came loose, after warranty expired. Was told it could not be tightended and would cost over $200 to replace. My wife raised Cane and they replaced it for free. So even the great can backslide, and I've heard these complaints on a number of Nissan vehicles. I have no doubt in my mind, zero, nada, that this is entirely due to Nissan's relationship with Renault.

 

[N80]

I have other "design" concerns about most things. As pointed out earlier, things are made for the 85 % of users. At 6'5" and more than 185 pounds, I always test everything and settle for what is the least uncomfortable.

I'm 6'5" (when I stand up straight) and weigh 200 pounds, so I feel you pain. I am very comfortable in my F-150. I don't even have to put the seat all the way back. But the thing is, even at my height, I fit in all those Japanese trucks just as well. So I'm not sure I buy into any excuses about vehicles being designed for 'average' builds. I know that they are, and that they have to be, but the Japs always had me well positioned without any controls, lights, gauges, buttons, knobs or levers being out of reach or out of sight.

The Kubota and John Deere people actually told me that I should buy a New Holland. If you are targeting a North American market with certain models, should that be a consideration?

I'm tall, but maybe my legs are short, but I find my Kubota L4400 very comfortable. Same with the JD 990. Maybe my expectations are low, but after 4-5 hours on the tractor the only thing that is sore is my 'clutch' knee.

 

[N80]

I'm sure he would have complained if it was in a Toyota or BMW.

Exactly!

Hey Roy, looky here, I just found the font size key too!

 

[N80]

You guys are a blast to talk to. Seriously. The internet is a poor substitute for a bunch of guys shooting the bull around a fire or in the barn lot, but its the next best thing to being there. When I look back over a thread like this I can just hear my real life pals and aquaintances saying these same things. Some will agree with you, another will put you in your place, everyone calls BS, BS when its BS no matter who says it. Well, there's always that one guy who everyone else just winks and nods and grins about. You all know one like that..........oh shoot, don't tell me I'm that guy.......

 

[jdbower]

Luckily only my low range is an electronic pushbutton - and there's no mistaking when you're in low range (redlining at 10mph is a good hint)! I liked my old 4Runner's big lever for 4WD, now it's full time so I guess that removes the issue of how to switch into it...

Toyota builds some nice trucks, I loved this video from a show on the BBC. If you like tight, try German cars - it's too bad they don't build pickups.

 

[MossRoad]

Have you ever considered putting manual locking hubs on the front? That way, you could leave them in free-wheel and if you accidentally bump the button, the components will not have too much trouble meshing since the tires are disconnected from the axles. Also, it will probably improve your gas mileage a bit, and save on wear on you front drive train. Just a thought.

Another thought... can you put a second switch in a different location in series with the factory switch? That seems to be the easiest way to solve the problem.

 

[N80]

The hard steering in 4X4 is not a Ford thing, its a 4X4 thing. I know some people will disagree and say,"my chevy, toyota, dodge, whatever, doesnt do that" if you have a part time 4X4 system in your truck, it will scrub and jerk on hard surfaces, thats just physics.

Sure, but its a matter of degree. In my other trucks, actually moreso in that old 76 Cherokee, if you weren't on pavement you did not get this feel. At all. With this Ford, no matter what surface you are on, it resists turning not only in the steering wheel, but you have to give it more gas AND wrestle with the steering wheel. It is dramatic and makes tight turns hard. I don't care if the tires are slipping and scrubbing but when you have to give it more gas to turn, that's just not all that great. That's why I've wondered if I'd broken something.

 

[N80]

Have you ever considered putting manual locking hubs on the front?

Well that's another touchy subject. I love locking hubs. Have no idea how to retrofit them in a vehicle with no hubs at all. Would require different rims too.

Personally, I think the best system of all would be auto locking hubs with manual override. And I think these have existed at least as aftermarket add ons for some vehicles like my '90 Pathfinder that had auto-locking hubs. With them, the front driveline only turns when the hub is engaged and the transfer case is engaged. The problem with those is that if you back up, say in a big mud hole, those hubs disengage and then re-engage when the torque in reverse is sufficient at the hub. This leaves you with a moment of 'one wheel drive' and if they don't re-engage quickly it can be the difference between stuck and unstuck. Particularly an issue on inclines.

That's where a three way hub is great. It can operate exactly like the factory autolocking hub, but you can also get out and lock it maually so that the only way it unlocks is if you get back out and unlock them. You could also set it to completely freewheel if I remember correctly. This gives you control at the transfer case and complete control at the hub as well. Perfect.

But, this F-150 has no hub at all. The front wheels are always locked and the front driveline always turning. There is no chance of them coming unlocked, but as you mentioned, the front driveline is always going with whatever wear and tear and whatever gasmileage penalty goes with it. (At least that is my understanding of this system.) Unlike most of my trucks, I've never changed the tires on this one myself, but, there is certainly no visible hub. The rims are solid in the middle except for a tiny little Ford icon.

Can you add hubs to a setup like this? If so, can you get the auto/manual combo hubs for it?

 

[RayH]

Sure, but its a matter of degree. In my other trucks, actually moreso in that old 76 Cherokee, if you weren't on pavement you did not get this feel. At all. With this Ford, no matter what surface you are on, it resists turning not only in the steering wheel, but you have to give it more gas AND wrestle with the steering wheel. It is dramatic and makes tight turns hard. I don't care if the tires are slipping and scrubbing but when you have to give it more gas to turn, that's just not all that great. That's why I've wondered if I'd broken something.

Let me guess, your old Jeep had Quadratrac right?
Thats a full time system. You should feel very little if any jerking with a fulltime system. Full time and Part time, thats apples and oranges.
Theres nothing wrong with a 4X4 truck that jerks and scrubs. Its supposed to operate like that on high traction surfaces, thats why it shouldnt be used on high traction surfaces. Thats not a down side or design flaw of the Ford, thats the way 4X4 is in any truck. True there may be differences in how some trucks handle it based on their weight, tires, steering and so forth.

 

[Volfandt]

I'm posting without reading though the entire thread but what the hey, when you gots something to say, errr ahhh post, then do it and carry on

I've got a 98 F-150 Off Road w/a 4.6 Romeo and it just turned 120K. I've changed the plugs out once, the accessory drive belt once and cleaned out the EGR once, other than that it's been scheduled maintenance every 5k miles. Couldn't ask for a better .5 ton truck.
Oh and I accidently switched into 4WD when I thought I was turning up the fan, ONCE

Now I've read through, MANUAL LOCKING HUBS? I'll take the electric/vaccum actuated hubs that I've accidentally engaged when I didn't intend to once in almost 10 yrs of ownership over manual locking hubs ANYDAY
And I've had several manual locking hub 4x4's.......

 

[RayH]

Personally I like manual hubs. Actually the system I like best is Dodge. They dont have locking hubs. Its simple and doesnt break.
I dont know if Ford has changed their system in the last few years but I had a Mazda pickup (Ranger) several years ago. It had auto hubs. The only problem I had with it was one time I was making a u turn on a snowy road and I dropped the front end into the ditch. I didnt hav eit in 4X4 at the time. When the front end dropped off the road, I pushed my button and nothing. It said it was in 4X4 but the front wasnt turning. I had to rock the truck back and forth to allow the hubs to rotate enough to lock. Just like when you take it out of 4X4, it tells you to roll a couple feet for the hubs to disengage. To engage them you must be rolling also.

 

[Volfandt]

But even with the rocking to get them to lock in, you still didn't have to leave the comfort of your conditioned cab to get out, hopefully be able to get to the hub thats down in the ditch, lock it, then climb back into the cab, drive out of the ditch, drive down the road aways, get back out and unlock the hubs so you can cruise on the pavement again
BTDT

 

[RayH]

But even with the rocking to get them to lock in, you still didn't have to leave the comfort of your conditioned cab to get out, hopefully be able to get to the hub thats down in the ditch, lock it, then climb back into the cab, drive out of the ditch, drive down the road aways, get back out and unlock the hubs so you can cruise on the pavement again
BTDT

very true. But thats why you leave your manual hubs locked in inclimate weather.
It did take some rocking to get the hubs locked though. I thought how embarrassing to get me new 4X4 truck stuck right beside the road, actually still half on the road.

 

[Volfandt]

I thought how embarrassing to get me new 4X4 truck stuck right beside the road, actually still half on the road.

LMAO, cause BTDT

Actually, my most favorite 4x4 was my 1984 F150 plain jane FL custom long bed regular cab. It had the venerable 302 2bbl, C4 auto, PS / PB AM/FM, dual tanks and a bench seat so long it could squeeze 4 adults across as long as none had a broad butt
It was no frills but would go like a tank. I would take it anywhere I wanted to go and it would just go. Course at 10mpg I liked off road better than on road. And yeah, it had the manual locking hibs I'm knocking. There was many the time I drug mud and clay and snow back into the cab 'cause I neglected to lock 'em down before I started out. But now that I think about it, the F150 didn't mind the mud at all since it had the wall to wall rubber flooring, I'd just hose it out once it got too deep
I never did have a problem w/confusing the 4x4 knob w/the fan knob in that ole truck. Guess it not having AC nor electric automatic locking hubs had something to do with that

I also had an 87 Ranger 4x4. 3.0 V^ w/a 5sp a few more amenities such as AC, power windows, AM/FM Casette, but still had the manual locking hubs. It would go pretty good too but not as good as "The Tank". It had the fancy carpeting and seats so it didn't like me getting mud etc in it. But at nearly 20mpg I definitely liked keeping that one on the pavement

 

[Dargo]

Since the conversation has gone to locking hubs, I have to tell a quick story about a buddy of mine back in high school. Hmm, he's now the leader of the local union electrical workers...I doubt he'd appreciate it if I mentioned his name now. It's nothing big, but it was funny. Back in the mid 70's there seemed to be a huge 4X4 craze and everyone had 4X4 trucks. Heck, I had a 4X4 belt buckle that I actually wore. Everytime we parked in any parking lot, Ted would bend down and lock in the hubs of about every truck we passed. He even got me a few times.

I'd only notice when my old '74 F250 (I think it had a 460) would get even worse gas mileage than normal. It would go from something like 9 to 4 mpg. I just wonder how long it took for the people he "helped out", as he'd call it, to notice that their front hubs were locked in. I know one kid had a nice new '76 Toyota Land Cruiser that Ted locked the hubs on at the beginning of the school year still had them locked at the end of the year! With the price of gas now some people might not think his little game is funny. But, he's in his mid 40's now with 4 kids, so I doubt he still does things like that. And, no, the story isn't about me; I didn't do that and, besides, I have 5 kids.

 

[LBrown59]

Good idea. But I'm going to try something easier.
* I'm going to put something on the switch so that when I touch it, I know it isn't one of the climate control switches. The 4wd switch does have little ribs on the side, but you don't notice them at all. Some kind of tape or grip material might do.

*Put a knob on it that's a different size and shape than the other knob.

 

[RoyJackson]

EDITED "My point is that the American automakers generated a lot of ill will in the 70's and early 80's. A lot. After that sort of experience why would I not have low expectations? Yes a lot of time had gone by but the Japs are still here with great stuff. I finally bought American because they had what I needed and the Japs did not. Chalk one up for USA. (If they had, I'd be driving a Nissan Titan right now....for better or worse...more on that later.)"

I don't see what you mean by "ill will" being genetrated by the automotive companies in the 70's and 80's. They built some nice, if not memorable cars then...well, look at the early 70's Mustangs and Chevelles, both collector's cars now. But Ford, GM and Chrysler provided decent transportation.

As in my first response to this thread....you've got to remember American Management is beholden to the company stock holders, not the Customer. Japanese company stock is held more by institutional parties that didn't require quarterly profits.
The bean counters (in American companies) had as much control over design as the Engineering Dept. did. Decisions were made (still are) based upon a fraction of a penny cost difference.
Another thing the Japanese had over American companies (at that time) was a lot less internal bureaucracy. They could respond quicker to Customer issues.
And, of course, American companies have had to retain a lot more lawyers. Sometimes there were legitimate issues, but there were a lot of spurious and nusiance lawsuits too...and the resources that should have been used in Design/Manufacturing went elsewhere.

The philosophy behind the improvements in Japanese products actually came from an American Quality Guru...Edward Deming..in the early to mid 1950's. There's a heck of a story behind his being in Japan after WW II, but that's too long for this post.


"Well that's another touchy subject. I love locking hubs. Have no idea how to retrofit them in a vehicle with no hubs at all. Would require different rims too."

N80, have you actually priced this? When one of my Ranger's locking hubs went out, it was considerably cheaper to replace both with manual hubs (I prefer the manual hubs with a big lever on the floor...but with used vehicles, you get what you get). There wasn't any changes in the rims either.

BTW, here's a pickup I think you'd be happy with (attached). Is this cool or what???