Garage for Power Trac and Shop

[SpringHollow]

It REALLY pains me to say it but Fourteen is right (I hate to see him have to demonstrate any more humility than he alreasy has - i liked the rust joke by the way).

Here at least, the meter reads the amperage (or wattage since they are proportional to each other) only on the highest drawing leg. If the electrical loads in house A was the same as House B, but House A was 110V all on the same leg and House B was 220 V balnced equally, House A's electricty would cost twice as much (excluding all the fees, etc.) as House B's even though the total wattage is the same. So a 220V heater or airconditioner could save as half the $ as a 110V unit since it has half the amperage on any given leg. That maximum would only be realized if everything else in the house was perfectly balanced which seldom happens so the savings are usually less than 50%. Still, there is good reason to go 220V since these tend to be your larer loads.

Ken

 

[FOURTEEN]

I hope the pain isn't too severe!!



"Location: South of Rochester, NY"

Where?

I was born in Rochester, raised in Lima, college at RIT, Local #86 electrician, cottage on Honeoye Lake, lived in Canadice, and left in 1980! Haven't been back since my parents died.

The only thing I miss is not being able to plow snow with my PT425!! I sure could have used one of these back then!!
.

 

[BobRip]

It REALLY pains me to say it but Fourteen is right (I hate to see him have to demonstrate any more humility than he alreasy has - i liked the rust joke by the way).

Here at least, the meter reads the amperage (or wattage since they are proportional to each other) only on the highest drawing leg. If the electrical loads in house A was the same as House B, but House A was 110V all on the same leg and House B was 220 V balnced equally, House A's electricty would cost twice as much (excluding all the fees, etc.) as House B's even though the total wattage is the same. So a 220V heater or airconditioner could save as half the $ as a 110V unit since it has half the amperage on any given leg. That maximum would only be realized if everything else in the house was perfectly balanced which seldom happens so the savings are usually less than 50%. Still, there is good reason to go 220V since these tend to be your larer loads.

Ken

I did some research on this unbalance load costing more to run and the research did not support this. See this link. http://www.usbr.gov/power/data/fist/fist3_10/vol3-10.pdf

The linked paper shows schematics that add the current from the two legs and multiplies it by the voltage. I called a EE friend and he did the actual research. I will be the first to admit that the paper in the link does not come out and flatly contradict the statement that you made. However, I am buying Kilowatt hours and that is what it should measure. Commerical systems are different as they are 3 phase and unbalanced loads cost them generating power and other things. With a home it is single phase and no matter how you pull the power (balanced or unbalanced) the high wire feeding you transformer supplies the same current and power.

A test you could run would be to turn off all of your breakers except for two (one on each 120 volt leg). Plug in one electirc heater and monitor the speed of the disc (number of revolutions in one minute) and then put an electric heater on the other leg and see if the speed increases. If it increases then its monitoring both legs. My meter is new and does not have a disc, so I can't check this.

Ken, could you reference you source of information on this subject?

 

[SpringHollow]

A good friend is a licensed electrician and he told me this. When the local power company was down doing some work on the transformers, their electrician confirmed this. Now, another friend works for a company that all they do is make residential electrical load monitoring equipment so residents can balance their loads. He said that they would be out of business if it were not true.

I will try and remember to call the power company and see what their engineers say. They are switching over to solid state meters as we speak which also might change things.

Ken

 

[BobRip]

A good friend is a licensed electrician and he told me this. When the local power company was down doing some work on the transformers, their electrician confirmed this. Now, another friend works for a company that all they do is make residential electrical load monitoring equipment so residents can balance their loads. He said that they would be out of business if it were not true.

I will try and remember to call the power company and see what their engineers say. They are switching over to solid state meters as we speak which also might change things.

Ken

I am tempted to call my power company on this. Solid state meters can do anything they want. I wonder if this is legal. They are no longer charging you for power, but something else. If they did this without regulatory approval then it's probably not legal. Of course the power company has lawyers and probably did get approval. How about everybody calling their power company and see what they say?

 

[JD-Beach]

Good morning guys,

A few points on this electrical discussion from a licensed electrical engineer:

The vast majority of residences are metered by watt-hour revenue meters. This means watts X (multiplied by) hours and has nothing to do with balanced loads.

It is good to have balanced loads, although at the residential level the loads are rarely balanced, yet the imbalance amperage is usually insignificant. When numerous residences are connected to the utility company a natural diversity occurs which (usually) lessens the imbalance. JJ is correct in his statement regarding this.

It's true that if you increase the voltage of the appliance, you will reduce the current (amps) although you keep the total watts constant. However this does not save you any "Watt-hour" money on your electric bill.

BobRip is correct in his position.

There are exceptions to this condition where a service is metered by a "Demand" meter. In this case the total amps do count and reducing the amps helps to save money (but not energy). These "demand service rate schedules are typically used in commercial or industrial services and are limited in the residential environment. When they are used for a residential service it is often connected with a demand controlling computer that monitors total amps and automatically turns off certain loads when the demand limits are approached. I have this type of service at my home if anyone is interested in the details. It's fun to play with but it only saved me about $30 per month so it was not a great investment.

Generally is it good to operate tools or other loads at 240 volts because it will often result in the use of smaller wire. However I would limit this to big motors or big heaters where 120-volt operation would require #10 wire and 240-volt operation would require #12 wire.


Hope this helps

 

[SpringHollow]

I looked at our bill. We are on a peak demand system where they monitor how much power and when. It says we will be switched to a normal plan when they install the remote monitoring meter.

Ken

 

[JD-Beach]

Ken, Most demand meters measure total kilowatts (amps X volts). If you have this type of meter then the imbalance will not hurt your electric bill, because even when the lower voltage results in a higher current (amps) the multiplied product of these two numbers is the measure of demand. This is the type of peak demand metering used here in Virginia.

What is the name of your utility company? We can look online at their rate-schedules to determine the details of your demand related costs.

 

[BobRip]

Again, many thanks for all of the input. I thought I would summarize what I plan to do.

The garage will be 24 X 48 foot with a ceiling of about 10 feet.
There will be an attic room about 15 by 38 feet. A stair on the back of the garage will lead up to the attic. The attic will be unfinished and used for storage. The exterior will be brick with an 18 foot garage door, 9 foot garage door (on side), and a 30 inch door near the house. The roof will have lifetime shingles.
The electrical service will be 100 amp, 220 volts. The electrical panel will be a 200 amp panel to allow for more breakers. There will be 120 volt electrical outlets every 4 feet. No adjacent outlets will be on the same circuit breaker. With about qty 8, 220 volt outlets. Some wired with 12 guage (20 amp) and some with 10 guage (30 amp). Although all of them will have 20 amp breakers initially, or maybe no breaker (not connected).

A dust collector (Grizzly) with 2.5 micron filter and 220 volts will be installed eventually.
A 220 volts air compressor will be installed eventually.

Heating will be a wood stove with some water barrels to hold heat. Flat tops will be put of the barrels as work space. I will also have a kerosene heater.

The ligthing will probably be 6 bulb T5 (5/8 inch diameter bulbs) fixtures. There will be six of these with a light switch for each. This gives about 95 lumens per square foot. It also uses about 2 KW of electricity when all are on. Hopeful this will be rare.



I plan to use roll around cubes as work space and tool holders. I saw this in Wood Magazine Edit: Actually Fine Wood Working Magazine. All the tops will be even with the tool cutting tops to act as wood and metal catchers.

I think that is all for now. Let me know if you have any suggestions. I am still not sure about the lights. They are right expensive (over $1000 for the fixtures), but I like a lot of light.

 

[farm23]

WOW I am envious. My shop is only 14 x 24 with 8' ceiling and no attic. I also started with a wood stove but after loosing some stored liquids I added a MR Heater propane infrared heater. It cost me about $100.00 a year (the shop is well insulated) to keep the shop @ approximatley 45 deg. unoccupied and 60 deg wihen I am working. The wood stove is still in place but I have been told by my insurance carrier to remove it.